Disa pyetje historike!

Zeus10, ato shkrime nuk flasin shume per gjuhen Greke. Une personalisht e di shume mire qe Greqia eshte e populluar nga Shqiptaret, Sllavet, Turket, Vlachs, etj.

Nuk diskutohet qe Greqia eshte permbytur nga sllavet kur mbaroj Roma, edhe mbas nga Turket, edhe qe ne Atike dhe Epir kane jetuar shumica populli Shqiptar, edhe e di qe kjo gje ka qene deri ne vitet 1900, por une akoma jam tu folur per "gjuhen" Greke.

A ka ndonje historian ose linguist sot qe thote se Shqipja eshte Greqishtja e vjeter edhe e shpjegon cfar eshte Greqishtja e sotme?
Apo kjo eshte vetem opinioni i juaj? Jam i interesuar me dite a ka nje profesionist qe e thote kete?

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Zeus10, ato shkrime nuk flasin shume per gjuhen Greke. Une personalisht e di shume mire qe Greqia eshte e populluar nga Shqiptaret, Sllavet, Turket, Vlachs, etj.

Nuk diskutohet qe Greqia eshte permbytur nga sllavet kur mbaroj Roma, edhe mbas nga Turket, edhe qe ne Atike dhe Epir kane jetuar shumica populli Shqiptar, edhe e di qe kjo gje ka qene deri ne vitet 1900, por une akoma jam tu folur per "gjuhen" Greke.

A ka ndonje historian ose linguist sot qe thote se Shqipja eshte Greqishtja e vjeter edhe e shpjegon cfar eshte Greqishtja e sotme?
Apo kjo eshte vetem opinioni i juaj? Jam i interesuar me dite a ka nje profesionist qe e thote kete?

Te kerkosh ndihme ska asgja te keqe por te fillosh dhe te shash dhe te ulesh te tjeret kjo nuk te ka hije aspak.

Nga ZEUS10
Truthseeker, mire se erdhe ne forumin tone.
Pergjigja e pyetjes tende, eshte e gjate, e zorshme per tu kuptuar, nese njeriu nuk e studjon me themel historine, gjeografine, linguistiken dhe shume gjuhe te huaja. Çdo teme, ne kete forum, qe ka lidhje me greket, shpjegon pak nga pak, pjese te vogla te pyetjes qe po behet.

Pergjigje ma te bukur dhe te thjeshte pyetja jote nuk merr

Leka wrote:

Te kerkosh ndihme ska asgja te keqe por te fillosh dhe te shash dhe te ulesh te tjeret kjo nuk te ka hije aspak.

Une nuk jam tu sha ose tu ofenduar kerkend, por jam tu pyeter per ndihme. Une nuk e di a jeni historian ju, apo jeni nacionalista qe flitni kot, prandaj kerkoj "evidence" nga nje historian apo linguist i njoftur.

Im not trying to offend anyone, i would just like to see some real proof. The statement you are making is a VERY VERY big one, so i would appreciate if you could give me a source from a FOREIGN historian or linguist who is not Albanian that says the Albanian language is the Ancient Greek language.

I just want to learn the truth, not propaganda from Albanian nationalists. I get frustrated when Greek nationalists claim Albanians are Turks from the Caucasus, which we all know is NOT true. So if you cant answer my questions with real proof, then it's okay, but no need to say i am insulting anyone because im NOT. Now if no one here will answer my questions, then this is the last post i will make on this site, but if there is anyone out here who can answer these questions WITH A LINK OF PROOF AND EVIDENCE, then i would be greatful. To refresh your memory, these are my questions:

1. Is there a foreign historian or a linguist who says the Albanian language is the ancient Greek language?
2. If that is true, then what is the modern Greek language today? (If it's the explanation Zeus10 gave me, then i would like to know why did the churches version of Koine Greek become so different from the "real" Greek which apperantly they say is modern Albanian?)


Thanks in advance for any profesional respone!

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Zeus10, ato shkrime nuk flasin shume per gjuhen Greke. Une personalisht e di shume mire qe Greqia eshte e populluar nga Shqiptaret, Sllavet, Turket, Vlachs, etj.
Nuk diskutohet qe Greqia eshte permbytur nga sllavet kur mbaroj Roma, edhe mbas nga Turket, edhe qe ne Atike dhe Epir kane jetuar shumica populli Shqiptar, edhe e di qe kjo gje ka qene deri ne vitet 1900, por une akoma jam tu folur per "gjuhen" Greke.
A ka ndonje historian ose linguist sot qe thote se Shqipja eshte Greqishtja e vjeter edhe e shpjegon cfar eshte Greqishtja e sotme?
Apo kjo eshte vetem opinioni i juaj? Jam i interesuar me dite a ka nje profesionist qe e thote kete?

PSE E PASKE KAQ TE VESHTIRE MOR BURR I DHEUT TA KUPTOSH ??

1) E ke thene vet me fjalet e tua kur ke shkruar : "Une personalisht e di shume mire qe Greqia eshte e populluar nga Shqiptaret, Sllavet, Turket, Vlachs, etj."
Pra çfare do te thot kjo?
Do te thot se nje popullsi e tille e ndare ne shume etni secila me gjuhen, traditat, zakonet e veta (sllave, turke, shqiptare etj) nuk mund te fliste greqishten as te lashte dhe as ate kishtaro-tregtare (qe flitej vetem nga nje elite e shkolluar), por kjo popullsi fliste gjuhen e vet meme (cilado qofte ajo gjuhe).
Ajo qe ndodhi gjate revolucionit te 1929 e ka emrin krijim artificial te nje shteti nga Hiçi duke manipuluar dhe duke iu bere lavazhin e trurit popullsive dhe etnive te ndrysheme te asaj kohe.

Une kisha hapur nje teme me pare qe pershkruan ne menyre te pergjithshme kete tematike dhe mund ti jape deri diku nje shpjegim asaj qe po kerkon ti :
"The artificial modern “Greek” Language and Identity !!!"
https://arbenia.forumotion.com/mediteranian-history-f28/the-artificial-modern-greek-language-and-identity-t147.htm


2) Historiane dhe libra ka mjafton ti lexosh dhe te informohesh, kuptohet qe ajo qe ata thone nuk eshte e plote 100% edhe sepse duhet te marrim parasysh faktin se shume materjale, doreshkrime, deshmi te gjuhes se vjeter greke etj i perkasin periudhes se mesjetes dhe jane te gjitha kopje te kopjeve qe kane pesuar shtremberime dhe ndryshime... Pra nuk jane versione origjinale te greqishtes se vjeter, por jane versione kopjesh te gjuhes greke mesjetare qe siç e thame edhe me lart flitej vetem nga nje elite kishtaro-tregtare dhe jo nga populli i thjeshte!

1Bilderbeg, kush e ka shkruar ate? Nje historian, apo ti?

I read that whole thing, but as much as i would like to believe it, there were many rediculus contradictions.

First you want to prove that the Albanian language is the ancient Greek language, but then you try to prove that the ancient Greeks copied their mythical God's from the Pelasgians. I thought Zeus10 said that the Greeks, Illyrians, Epirotes, Macedonians and Thracians all WERE PELASGIANS? How can they copy their Gods from themselves?

And then you say that Ptolemy II invented Koine which was meant to be the "Universal Language" but where is the historical proof for this? The only thing that we know from Ptolemy is that he ordered 72 Jewish priests to translate the Hebrew Bible into ancient Greek. Where is the proof that he ordered a new language to be invented? And why would he do this? Why wouldnt he just use Greek as the "Universal Language"?

It's these silly contradictions that lead me farther away to these theories. I know that the modern Greeks lack any real identity from the ancient Greeks, and the modern Greek state might have been an invention from the English and French, but i have yet to see any real proof that their language is not related to ancient Greek, or that the Albanian language is ancient Greek. The only obvious thing about the Greek language is that they have lost many of their dialects, with the Attic one having replaced the others, but that can easily be explained through many invasions, and just like many years down the road, Standart Albanian (which is from Elbasan) might take the place of other dialects in the country. It doesn't mean that standart Albanian is a fake language not related to Geg or other Albanian diealects. It just means that it was more popular and more people started speaking it.

Once again, is there any real proof? Especially from a respected historian or linguist (preferebly foreign) who claims these things about the Albanian-Ancient Greek connection?

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:1Bilderbeg, kush e ka shkruar ate? Nje historian, apo ti?

I read that whole thing, but as much as i would like to believe it, there were many rediculus contradictions.

First you want to prove that the Albanian language is the ancient Greek language, but then you try to prove that the ancient Greeks copied their mythical God's from the Pelasgians. I thought Zeus10 said that the Greeks, Illyrians, Epirotes, Macedonians and Thracians all WERE PELASGIANS? How can they copy their Gods from themselves?

And then you say that Ptolemy II invented Koine which was meant to be the "Universal Language" but where is the historical proof for this? The only thing that we know from Ptolemy is that he ordered 72 Jewish priests to translate the Hebrew Bible into ancient Greek. Where is the proof that he ordered a new language to be invented? And why would he do this? Why wouldnt he just use Greek as the "Universal Language"?

It's these silly contradictions that lead me farther away to these theories. I know that the modern Greeks lack any real identity from the ancient Greeks, and the modern Greek state might have been an invention from the English and French, but i have yet to see any real proof that their language is not related to ancient Greek, or that the Albanian language is ancient Greek. The only obvious thing about the Greek language is that they have lost many of their dialects, with the Attic one having replaced the others, but that can easily be explained through many invasions, and just like many years down the road, Standart Albanian (which is from Elbasan) might take the place of other dialects in the country. It doesn't mean that standart Albanian is a fake language not related to Geg or other Albanian diealects. It just means that it was more popular and more people started speaking it.

Once again, is there any real proof? Especially from a respected historian or linguist (preferebly foreign) who claims these things about the Albanian-Ancient Greek connection?

Po e nis nga fundi, meqenese e ke perseritur shpesh kete kerkese;
Fatkeqesisht kerkesen tende nuk e plotesojme dot, jo vetem per faktin sepse jemi shqiptare dhe nuk e konvertojme dot veten ne te huaj, por dhe per arsyen se nuk mund ta ftojme nje "respected foreign historian or linguist" tu japi pergjigje pyetjeve te dikujt, qe nuk denjoi as te prezantonte veten ne forum.
Ne kete kuader, biseda ne forum ka nje kornize etike te percaktuar, nuk mund te kerkosh me "force" pergjigje per te mbushur boshlleqet e tua prej te tjereve, dhe kur ajo nuk te vjen, te besh kercenime te tipit: "po sme dhate pergjigje une nuk shkruaj me". Nese do te largohesh, udha mbare, asnjeri nuk eshte i detyruar te te servire 'one shoot', pergjigjen sic e do ti, kur e do dhe ku e do.

and just like many years down the road, Standart Albanian (which is from Elbasan) might take the place of other dialects in the country.

Ajo qe e ben me te paarsyeshme biseden me ty nuk eshte fakti(i pranueshem per kushtet e sotme) qe nuk je ne gjendje te ndertosh nje bisede ne shqip, por ajo qe kerkon te te shpjegojne cilesisht gjera qe kane lidhje me gjuhen dhe historine e mijra viteve me pare, nderkohe qe nuk ke njohje minimale per gjerat e tanishme(kur thua qe gjuha standarte shqipe na qenka dialekti i Elbasanit)

Pastaj, nga njera ane thua vete qe:

I know that the modern Greeks lack any real identity from the ancient Greeks, and the modern Greek state might have been an invention from the English and French,

nga ana tjeter i kerkon prej nesh provat qe:

but i have yet to see any real proof that their language is not related to ancient Greek, or that the Albanian language is ancient Greek.

Atehere, nese ti e di mire qe greket vuajne mungesen e identitetit, dhe per kete 'dijeni' duhet te kesh prova, pse vjen e i kerkon prej nesh keto prova?
Pse i nenvlefteson kapacitetet intelektuale te shume prej nesh, thjesht se po begenisim te diskutojme me ty?
A nuk e kupton ti, se per ne te japim gjithe keto shpjegime eshte humbje kohe, sidomos kur kemi te bejme me anonime shqipeçale, por gjithe keto i bejme ne emer te nje misioni te madh?
Kur te kesh kuptuar gjithe keto qe te thashe me siper, mund te diskutojme me mire rreth çeshtjeve "tekniko-profesionale".

Ju po me keqkuptoni mua, edhe e thashe me pare, qe une nuk jam tu ofenduar kerkend ketu, por kur ju thuani dicka kaq te madhe si po thoni (qe Shqipja eshte Greqishtja e vjeter), atehere duhet me pas disa "fakte te renda". Ju shkruani me opinionet e juaj personalisht, prandaj une nuk di cfar eshte e vertet, sepse une nuk ju njof jua, edhe sic e kam thene me pare, nuk e di a jeni historian, profesionalist, apo femi nacionalista qe flitni kot?

I find it funny that i am getting constant attacks on how i am insulting you when i have NEVER said one negative word to anyone here. I only ask for facts because this is something HUGE to say, and if you say it to a real historian and provide no facts at all, they will laugh at you. I can say that the English language is an artificial language like you do with Greek, but that doens't make it true does it? If i tell that to a historian or a linguist, they will think i am crazy. That is the reason why i am stressing and asking for some FACTS which no one here is able to give me, but instead tell me that i am insulting you when i have not.

I thought this forum was for discussion, but everytime i ask something i am made to look like i am doing something wrong. Did i offend anyone, what did i say? If you dont have any facts, then you dont have to answer to my posts, but you only make yourselves look bad when you claim such things and provide no evidence at all. Why do you think the world doesn't know anything about Albanian history? Because of things like that!

ZEUS10 wrote:
Atehere, nese ti e di mire qe greket vuajne mungesen e identitetit, dhe per kete 'dijeni' duhet te kesh prova, pse vjen e i kerkon prej nesh keto prova?
Pse i nenvlefteson kapacitetet intelektuale te shume prej nesh, thjesht se po begenisim te diskutojme me ty?
A nuk e kupton ti, se per ne te japim gjithe keto shpjegime eshte humbje kohe, sidomos kur kemi te bejme me anonime shqipeçale, por gjithe keto i bejme ne emer te nje misioni te madh?
Kur te kesh kuptuar gjithe keto qe te thashe me siper, mund te diskutojme me mire rreth çeshtjeve "tekniko-profesionale".

What i mean when i say the modern Greeks have no identity is not what you think. That can be said for any country in the world. Modern Greek population is made up of Albanians, Slavs, Turks, Vlachs, and who knows what else, but for the hundred time, my whole point is on their language. Is it the same as 2500 years ago, or no?

No country in the world is "pure" by blood, and that includes Albanians. We have many Turks, Slavs, and others who have been assimilated into Albanians, BUT our language is the ancient Illyrian language. No country is pure, but while the Turks and Slavs who have been assimilated are a minority in Albania, Greece's population is made up of MOSTLY assimilated Albanians, Turks, Vlach, Slavs, etc. that is why i said they have no "identity". The same thing could be said for Italy, who's population is made up of ancient Romans (miniority) Germanic people, Arabs, Northern Africans, Lombards, etc.



BUT IT ALL COMES DOWN TO WHAT LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. WHO'S LANGUAGE IS OLDER? OR WHO'S LANGUAGE HAS CHANGED LESS THROUGH THE YEARS AND HAS HAD FEW FOREIGN INFLUENCE? THAT'S WHAT IM TRYING TO LEARN!

Meqe do te dish per greqishten, qe te te sjell ca fakte perpara, cilen prej "greqishteve" kupton ti, atikishten, jonishten, aeolishten, koine, bizantine, katharevousa, demotikin e revolucionit, apo modernen?
Me thuaj cilen kupton qe te vazhdojme diskutimin. Gjithashtu me trego cila eshte gjuha e familjes tende dhe cdialekt.

Une nuk flas Greqisht, nuk e di cfar po thua me ate pyetje? Une di vetem pak Greqisht, dialektin e Athines, edhe e njof alfabetin Grek. Other than that, i am not familiar with Greek, but i am slowly trying to learn it so i can make up my own mind.


Edhe jam nga Lezha.

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Une nuk flas Greqisht, nuk e di cfar po thua me ate pyetje? Une di vetem pak Greqisht, dialektin e Athines, edhe e njof alfabetin Grek. Other than that, i am not familiar with Greek, but i am slowly trying to learn it so i can make up my own mind.


Edhe jam nga Lezha.

Ok, nese te sjell nje tekst nga ajo qe quhet greqishte e vjeter, a do jesh ne gjendje te kuptosh?

ZEUS10 wrote:

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Une nuk flas Greqisht, nuk e di cfar po thua me ate pyetje? Une di vetem pak Greqisht, dialektin e Athines, edhe e njof alfabetin Grek. Other than that, i am not familiar with Greek, but i am slowly trying to learn it so i can make up my own mind.


Edhe jam nga Lezha.

Ok, nese te sjelle nje tekst nga ajo qe quhet greqishte e vjeter, a do jesh ne gjendje te kuptosh?

Nga eshte ky teksts? Edhe pri cdo vitit? Une mund te kuptoj disa fjal, por jo te gjithe shkrimin. Por prap bjere ate tekstin sepse jam i interesuar ta shof.

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Une nuk flas Greqisht, nuk e di cfar po thua me ate pyetje? Une di vetem pak Greqisht, dialektin e Athines, edhe e njof alfabetin Grek. Other than that, i am not familiar with Greek, but i am slowly trying to learn it so i can make up my own mind.


Edhe jam nga Lezha.

Ok, nese te sjelle nje tekst nga ajo qe quhet greqishte e vjeter, a do jesh ne gjendje te kuptosh?

Nga eshte ky teksts? Edhe pri cdo vitit? Une mund te kuptoj disa fjal, por jo te gjithe shkrimin. Por prap bjere ate tekstin sepse jam i interesuar ta shof.

Eshte i vitit 526 BCE, ne dialektin Jonik.

Zeus10, a mund ta besh ma te madhe sepse eshte shume e vogel, nuk mund ta lexoj.

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Zeus10, a mund ta besh ma te madhe sepse eshte shume e vogel, nuk mund ta lexoj.

Posi jo :

Flm, por jo nuk kupjot gje. Si e ka lidhjen kjo me gjuhen Shqipe?

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Flm, por jo nuk kupjot gje. Si e ka lidhjen kjo me gjuhen Shqipe?

Kjo eshte "greqisht", nuk eshte shqip. Po ti me "premtove" qe do e perktheje ne greqishten e re?
Meqenese kjo eshte parardhesja e te rese, ti nuk do ta kishe veshtire ta perktheje apo jo?

ZEUS10 wrote:

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Flm, por jo nuk kupjot gje. Si e ka lidhjen kjo me gjuhen Shqipe?

Kjo eshte "greqisht", nuk eshte shqip. Po ti me "premtove" qe do e perktheje ne greqishten e re?
Meqenese kjo eshte parardhesja e te rese, ti nuk do ta kishe veshtire ta perktheje apo jo?

Por une nuk jam mjeshter i Greqishtes se sotme o zoteri, une te thash qe kuptoj vetem pak. Por me thua, cfar eshte lidhja e ati teksti me Shqipen?


Edhe e dallova qe ajo i kishte disa gjera njesoj si Greqishta e sotme, pershembull "oi" "tis" "kai" "alla" etj. perdoren ne Greqisht sot, por nuk perdoren ne Shqip.

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Flm, por jo nuk kupjot gje. Si e ka lidhjen kjo me gjuhen Shqipe?

Kjo eshte "greqisht", nuk eshte shqip. Po ti me "premtove" qe do e perktheje ne greqishten e re?
Meqenese kjo eshte parardhesja e te rese, ti nuk do ta kishe veshtire ta perktheje apo jo?

Por une nuk jam mjeshter i Greqishtes se sotme o zoteri, une te thash qe kuptoj vetem pak. Por me thua, cfar eshte lidhja e ati teksti me Shqipen?


Edhe e dallova qe ajo i kishte disa gjera njesoj si Greqishta e sotme, pershembull "oi" "tis" "kai" "alla" etj. perdoren ne Greqisht sot, por nuk perdoren ne Shqip.

Kur ti nuk kupton nje tekst te thjeshte, si mund te pretendosh te kuptosh, koncepte te veshtira te linguistikes dhe semantikes?

ZEUS10 wrote:

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Flm, por jo nuk kupjot gje. Si e ka lidhjen kjo me gjuhen Shqipe?

Kjo eshte "greqisht", nuk eshte shqip. Po ti me "premtove" qe do e perktheje ne greqishten e re?
Meqenese kjo eshte parardhesja e te rese, ti nuk do ta kishe veshtire ta perktheje apo jo?

Por une nuk jam mjeshter i Greqishtes se sotme o zoteri, une te thash qe kuptoj vetem pak. Por me thua, cfar eshte lidhja e ati teksti me Shqipen?


Edhe e dallova qe ajo i kishte disa gjera njesoj si Greqishta e sotme, pershembull "oi" "tis" "kai" "alla" etj. perdoren ne Greqisht sot, por nuk perdoren ne Shqip.

Kur ti nuk kupton nje tekst te thjeshte, si mund te pretendosh te kuptosh, koncepte te veshtira te linguistikes dhe semantikes?

Une kurr nuk thashe qe jam profesionist, edhe e prandoj qe nuk di shume per linguistiken, por ajo eshte arsyja qe po pys pytje.


I am slowly trying to learn, that's why i read about history everyday and why i am trying to learn Greek, and within time i will look into the field of linguistics, but as of right now, i am an amatour

Nuk po e perkthen atehere? Jam kurioz me dite si e ka lidhjen ajo me gjuhen tone.

Mire ne regull. Me dy fjale: historia e Heleneve, eshte nje histori e zgjedhur me kujdes nga nje antikitetet i supozuar shume i dyshimte, veshur popullsive shqiptaro-sllavo-turko-vllahe-hebree te Greqise se atehershme. Gjuha e tyre eshte gjuha e elites kishtare e tregetaro-byzantineve, qe u adoptua ne sistemin shkollor, dhe u injektua gjithe popullsise ortodokse, qe u vethipnotizua duke besuar qe ishin helene. Pak na pak, nga nje gjuhe elite ajo u be gjuhe e popullit, duke u krijuar nje komb i ri ku berthamen e tij, e perbenin ortodokset arvanitas, qe ne njefare menyre, mund te jene vertete pasardhesit e races quazi-mitike: heleneve.

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Nuk po e perkthen atehere? Jam kurioz me dite si e ka lidhjen ajo me gjuhen tone.

Ajo flet per dy gazetare amerikane te arrestuar ne Korene e Veriut qe ne vitin 526 ....para Krishtit. Kjo eshte gjuha """natyrale"""" e """grekeve"""" te lashte. Naten e mire.

Is that supposed to be a joke? I dont get it.


By the way, what is the oldest surviving Greek text that we have today? I dont mean copy's of it, but the actual thing (and not Linear B Mycenean) but after that when they started using the Phoenician script. From what date is it? And have they been able to translate it?

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Is that supposed to be a joke? I dont get it.


By the way, what is the oldest surviving Greek text that we have today? I dont mean copy's of it, but the actual thing (and not Linear B Mycenean) but after that when they started using the Phoenician script. From what date is it? And have they been able to translate it?

Sigurisht, por teksti eshte i sakte. Une e solla per te treguar se sa artificial eshte fjaleformimi i te ashtequajtures "greqishte e vjeter".
Kopja me e vjeter e nje teksti eshte kjo:



Konkluzionet nxirri vete.