Albanian and the Indo-European Urheimat

OK, this is a post where I want people to discuss their own personal theories or opinions on the Indo-European Urheimat. I will include some of the theories I know about and my personal opinions of each and then discuss my personal theory in relation to Albanian.

Here are some of the possible Urheimats of Indo-European given by scholars.

1. The Black Sea Area Urheimat. The theory goes that the Indo-Europeans came from around the Black Sea area. To me, it seems that there is very little linguistic support for this. If the Black Sea area is the Urheimat, I would expect that the Black Sea area would have a great diversity in Indo-European languages. The only problem is that the Black Sea area does not. The Black Sea hypothesis is tied with the Kurgan culture. Cultural artifacts moving do not equal a language moving. Although the Black Sea would be a central point of IE’s geographic expanse, a geographic center is not important for language classification.

2. Anatolian Hypothesis. The theory has the Indo-Europeans coming from Anatolia. Anatolia has the oldest attested IE language, but Anatolia is not so diverse in IE languages, also Anatolia is known to have been inhabited by non-IE people. Anatolian languages exhibit archaic features such as laryngeals, but again these languages are attested very early.

3. Balkan Hypothesis. The Balkans had a great deal of linguistic diversity early on. We have Illyrian (Albanian), Macedonian, Dacian, Thracian, and Greek. We also have Phrygian spoken close by in Anatolia. The geographic distributions of these languages are relatively small compared to the vast geograhic expanse of the IE subgroups outside of the Balkans such as Celtic and Indo-Iranian.

Now, using my Balkans as a starting point (especially the Western Balkans, such as Illyria/Albania), we have a group of speakers the Proto-Indo-Europeans. As they start to move away (due to of course an increase of population), early on a group Bosporus and they become the Anatolian group (Hittites, Lycians, Lydians, Luwians). These Indo-Europeans encountered people like the Hattians.

Another group moves south and they become the Greeks/Phyrgians/Armenians. Later, this group would cross into Anatolia and they became the Phrygians and Armenians. The Armenians went further east into Anatolia and encountered the Hurrians as well as the IE Anatolians. The Greeks of would later spread to Crete (meeting the Minoans) and Cyprus, colonize all of the islands, and also cross in Anatolia itself coming into contact with the IE Anatolians.

Around the same time, another group from the Balkans started to settle into the Italian peninsula, these became the Oscan, Umbrian, and Latin speakers. Perhaps an earlier movement into Italy includes the Messapic speakers. The movement of these Balkan people into Italy left transitional groups such as Venetic and Liburnian.

Again, around the same time, a group of Balkan people were moving North/Northwest in Europe. These were the Celts. They spread to all over central and western Europe eventually reaching Spain. Another group of these people with wanderlust were the ancestors of the Tocharians who made it all the way to western China.

Another group was moving North/Northeast. This includes the Germans, Balts, and Slavs.

From the eastern flank of the Balkans, the Thracians, and Dacians settled into the eastern Balkans, yet still some groups move farther east such as the Cimmerians, and the Aryans who would eventually settle into Iran and India. The Aryans would encounter the Elamites in Iran and the Dravidians and many tribal people in India. The Aryans who settled in the isolated mountains would retain their original appearance more as they did not mix with these non-IE people.


So with all of these movements, we have people who stayed where they were. These are the Illyrians (Albanians). Albanian unlike other IE languages if often connected to all of the other branches due to its similarities it shares. It shares features with Germanic, Slavic, Baltic, Italic, Greek, Aryan, and Celtic. It has been both conservative and innovative much like any other branch of IE, but it has its own secrets such as a laryngeal h4 and its own distinct sound changes for the palatals and velars. The Albanians too have remained the purest of all IE people. Since they stayed where they were and did not mix with many others, they retain the culture and physical appearance of the original Indo-European people. So if you want to see what a Proto-Indo-European looked like, just go to Albania.

Greek hudōr along with Albanian ujë, English water, Hittite wātar, Russian voda, Irish uisge, Lithuanian vanduo, Tocharian wär, Latin unda all come from PIE *wed-. This is a well established root in all IE branches.

Sykalter wrote:
This is a cognate shared by Greek and Albanian. *h2nēr- is the root. Other IE languages also have this root: Sanskrit nara, Phrygian anar, Lithuanian noras, Welsh nerth, etc.

I am pretty sure all the IE languages have the same origin, but the question is:

1. Did the languages followed a natural evolution(Darwinian) starting with a common language (presumably the so called PIE)?
or
2. A CREATOR was using the same basic language to create other IE languages, employing a limited vocabolary(from this basic language) and changing sounds.

3. Both 1 and 2

4. Most of the languages beside Albanian are the result of human manipulation because of the need of the grammar and writing system rules which affected the language so much creating different languages.

5. All 1 &2 &4

Albanian njeh along with Greek gignōskō, English know, Russian znat', Sanskrit jānāti, Tocharian knān, Welsh gnawd, etc. all descend from PIE *g'neh3-.

Sykalter wrote:Greek hudōr along with Albanian ujë, English water, Hittite wātar, Russian voda, Irish uisge, Lithuanian vanduo, Tocharian wär, Latin unda all come from PIE -. This is a well established root in all IE branches.

Sykalter wrote:Albanian njeh along with Greek gignōskō, English know, Russian znat', Sanskrit jānāti, Tocharian knān, Welsh gnawd, etc. all descend from PIE *g'neh3-.

I dont need to listen this, I want to know what *wed means . I beleive it means way in all IE languages.

PS. I never heard of a Latin unda, I am curious where did you find it, because in Latin as far as I know water is : aqua, aquae , lympha, lymphae, inrigatus.

ZEUS10 wrote:

Sykalter wrote:
This is a cognate shared by Greek and Albanian. *h2nēr- is the root. Other IE languages also have this root: Sanskrit nara, Phrygian anar, Lithuanian noras, Welsh nerth, etc.

I am pretty sure all the IE languages have the same origin, but the question is:

1. Did the languages followed a natural evolution(Darwinian) starting with a common language (presumely PIE)?
or
2. A CREATOR was using the same basic language to create other IE languages, employing a limited vocabolary(from this basic language) and changing sounds.

3. Both 1 and 2

4. Most of the languages beside Albanian are the result of human manipulation because of the need of the grammar and writing system rules which affected the language so much creating different languages.

5. All 1 &2 &4

Languages just naturally change due to several factors. First, the transmission of language is not perfect, speakers will make small changes. If enough other speakers who hear these changes react to them positively (perhaps the prestige of the speaker), then they will copy the change. Also, there is language contact between other languages. If speakers are separated from each other, the small changes that occur over time will be so great that two new dialects will form and eventually two new languages. The writing system can have some effect on the language such as hypercorrections. If the language is codified in some kind of official form and many people start speaking this form, this will have an effect as well.

For Indo-European, the major branches had already divided before any of the IE languages were even put to writing yet. For the Indo-European language the amount of time that passed (with the small little changes over thousands of years) and the influence of the substratum languages are what shaped the various branches. Older forms of IE languages will always look more alike than the modern forms.

ZEUS10 wrote:

Sykalter wrote:Greek hudōr along with Albanian ujë, English water, Hittite wātar, Russian voda, Irish uisge, Lithuanian vanduo, Tocharian wär, Latin unda all come from PIE -. This is a well established root in all IE branches.

Sykalter wrote:Albanian njeh along with Greek gignōskō, English know, Russian znat', Sanskrit jānāti, Tocharian knān, Welsh gnawd, etc. all descend from PIE *g'neh3-.

I dont need to listen this, I want to know what *wed means . I beleive it means way in all IE languages.

PS. I never heard of a Latin unda, I am curious where did you find it, because in Latin as far as I know water is : aqua, aquae , lympha, lymphae, inrigatus.

Latin unda means "wave" not "water". There is something in linguistics called semantic shift. Sanskit udan also is from this root and udan means wave/water. *wed means wet or water. It does not mean "way".

Sykalter wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:

Sykalter wrote:
This is a cognate shared by Greek and Albanian. *h2nēr- is the root. Other IE languages also have this root: Sanskrit nara, Phrygian anar, Lithuanian noras, Welsh nerth, etc.

I am pretty sure all the IE languages have the same origin, but the question is:

1. Did the languages followed a natural evolution(Darwinian) starting with a common language (presumely PIE)?
or
2. A CREATOR was using the same basic language to create other IE languages, employing a limited vocabolary(from this basic language) and changing sounds.

3. Both 1 and 2

4. Most of the languages beside Albanian are the result of human manipulation because of the need of the grammar and writing system rules which affected the language so much creating different languages.

5. All 1 &2 &4

Languages just naturally change due to several factors. First, the transmission of language is not perfect, speakers will make small changes. If enough other speakers who hear these changes react to them positively (perhaps the prestige of the speaker), then they will copy the change. Also, there is language contact between other languages. If speakers are separated from each other, the small changes that occur over time will be so great that two new dialects will form and eventually two new languages. The writing system can have some effect on the language such as hypercorrections. If the language is codified in some kind of official form and many people start speaking this form, this will have an effect as well.

For Indo-European, the major branches had already divided before any of the IE languages were even put to writing yet. For the Indo-European language the amount of time that passed (with the small little changes over thousands of years) and the influence of the substratum languages are what shaped the various branches. Older forms of IE languages will always look more alike than the modern forms.

Ok , but this is what you can read in the 'History of the Phonetics' text. Do you think a CREATOR has been envolved on this?

PS. Open a thread about the PIE roots and lets discuss there about the origin of the IE languages, because Ancient Greek language origin is well-established. It used to be an old Albanian dialect and since Albanian is an IE language the Old Greek would have show the origin from the PIE roots. Thus I dont find any benefit showing the possible originative PIE roots for the words I posted above.

Sykalter wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:

Sykalter wrote:Greek hudōr along with Albanian ujë, English water, Hittite wātar, Russian voda, Irish uisge, Lithuanian vanduo, Tocharian wär, Latin unda all come from PIE -. This is a well established root in all IE branches.

Sykalter wrote:Albanian njeh along with Greek gignōskō, English know, Russian znat', Sanskrit jānāti, Tocharian knān, Welsh gnawd, etc. all descend from PIE *g'neh3-.

I dont need to listen this, I want to know what *wed means . I beleive it means way in all IE languages.

PS. I never heard of a Latin unda, I am curious where did you find it, because in Latin as far as I know water is : aqua, aquae , lympha, lymphae, inrigatus.

Latin unda means "wave" not "water". There is something in linguistics called semantic shift. Sanskit udan also is from this root and udan means wave/water. *wed means wet or water. It does not mean "way".

unda in Latin and onda in Italian is different word from aqua(water), so its not good to converge the semantics of other words to strengthen your point in favour of your argument.

ZEUS10 wrote:

PS. Open a thread about the PIE roots and lets discuss there about the origin of the IE languages, because Ancient Greek language origin is well-established. It used to be an old Albanian dialect and since Albanian is an IE language the Old Greek would have show the origin from the PIE roots. Thus I dont find any benefit showing the possible originative PIE roots for the words I posted above.

Just because Albanian is spoken in the Indo-European Urheimat, that doesn't mean that the other IE branches are daughter languages to Albanian. For example, Italian is spoken in the Italic Urheimat, but that doesn't mean French, Spanish, Romanian, Catalan descend from Italian. They all descend from Latin, the older language.

So you can't say Greek, English, Italian, or Tocharian descend from Albanian. They all descend from an older language which we call Proto-Indo-European. If you want to call Proto-Indo-European, Old Balkan, or Archaic Albanian. that is up to you, but linguistically it makes no sense to call Greek and Old Albanian dialect.

ZEUS10 wrote:

unda in Latin and onda in Italian is different word from aqua(water), so its not good to converge the semantics of other words to strengthen your point in favour of your argument.

Of course Italian onda and aqua are different. Aqua is from a totally different PIE root, it is from *akWā- which includes Welish aig, Old English īg, Hittite akwanzi, etc.

Sykalter wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:

unda in Latin and onda in Italian is different word from aqua(water), so its not good to converge the semantics of other words to strengthen your point in favour of your argument.

Of course Italian onda and aqua are different. Aqua is from a totally different PIE root, it is from *akWā- which includes Welish aig, Old English īg, Hittite akwanzi, etc.

but you have included it inside the list of IE cognates for water?? :

Sykalter wrote:Greek hudōr along with Albanian ujë, English water, Hittite wātar, Russian voda, Irish uisge, Lithuanian vanduo, Tocharian wär, Latin unda all come from PIE -. This is a well established root in all IE branches.

ZEUS10 wrote:

but you have included it inside the list of IE cognates for water?? :

OK, I am not sure if you have had any linguistics classes in an academic setting, but cognates do not mean having the same semantic meanings. Cognates which languages share do NOT have to same meaning in the daughter languages. More often than not, the meaning shifts in the daughter languages. For example Albanian motër is cognate with English mother, Avestan mātar although semantically Albanian motër has shifted in meaning to sister. Another example is PIE *g'hel- meaning to shine has shifted to several meanings in the daughter languages such as yellow, gold, etc. So PIE *wed- meaning wet has the meaning of water/wave/wet in the daughter languages.

Sykalter wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:

but you have included it inside the list of IE cognates for water?? :

OK, I am not sure if you have had any linguistics classes in an academic setting, but cognates do not mean having the same semantic meanings. Cognates which languages share do NOT have to same meaning in the daughter languages. More often than not, the meaning shifts in the daughter languages. For example Albanian motër is cognate with English mother, Avestan mātar although semantically Albanian motër has shifted in meaning to sister. Another example is PIE *g'hel- meaning to shine has shifted to several meanings in the daughter languages such as yellow, gold, etc. So PIE *wed- meaning wet has the meaning of water/wave/wet in the daughter languages.

well: I'm curious to know, what you mean by 'daughter languages'? I think better way is to say: daughters of Language, because daughter can't have many mothers, only ONE! If you mean by 'daughter' of germanics languages, that's another way... There are many differences between IE and PIE, because isn't any conclusion definitively, who is in real PIE, only says: exist a unit source of all IE languages - and who is for you mother of IE, concerted as PIE?

for example: Albanian word - moter, does not cognate with English - mother, because of moter = sestra/sister has cared for antic family, so became mater/muter/mother, in short shine - mom. Muter/Mater and Mother are more close, and roots sis/ses/schwes (ter), are same roots.

ZEUS10 wrote:

Sykalter wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:

unda in Latin and onda in Italian is different word from aqua(water), so its not good to converge the semantics of other words to strengthen your point in favour of your argument.

Of course Italian onda and aqua are different. Aqua is from a totally different PIE root, it is from *akWā- which includes Welish aig, Old English īg, Hittite akwanzi, etc.

but you have included it inside the list of IE cognates for water?? :

Sykalter wrote:Greek hudōr along with Albanian ujë, English water, Hittite wātar, Russian voda, Irish uisge, Lithuanian vanduo, Tocharian wär, Latin unda all come from PIE -. This is a well established root in all IE branches.

ANCIENT ILLYRIAN ''GREEK''

Latin word - aqua, I have explained from illyrian - akull, akuj, and word Aquilla, became from the bird of Ice of high mountains - skipe, shqiponja. Ujë, uji - voda/waser/water/leau, are late IE words. If we give any conclusion about what academic science says, we can't to arrive so much only we turn in circle what another saying... Enough to now the world was talking about only 'greek world' - when was ILLYRIAN WOLRD in real and only Albanian old roots can to explain Antique and Antiquity!

Sykalter wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:

but you have included it inside the list of IE cognates for water?? :

OK, I am not sure if you have had any linguistics classes in an academic setting, but cognates do not mean having the same semantic meanings. Cognates which languages share do NOT have to same meaning in the daughter languages. More often than not, the meaning shifts in the daughter languages. For example Albanian motër is cognate with English mother, Avestan mātar although semantically Albanian motër has shifted in meaning to sister. Another example is PIE *g'hel- meaning to shine has shifted to several meanings in the daughter languages such as yellow, gold, etc. So PIE *wed- meaning wet has the meaning of water/wave/wet in the daughter languages.

Nice, you put a false cognate insinuating me not having classes in linguistics, nice one.

"false cognate" is used to refer to cognates that have different meanings

this is what you did, I was strictly showing you the etymology of udhor(ύδωρ)(water) and you came up with a set of cognates in IE languages, insert among those a false cognate and then make an assumption for me being ignorant on the subject. That was a nice one.

Sykalter wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:

but you have included it inside the list of IE cognates for water?? :

OK, I am not sure if you have had any linguistics classes in an academic setting, but cognates do not mean having the same semantic meanings. Cognates which languages share do NOT have to same meaning in the daughter languages. More often than not, the meaning shifts in the daughter languages. For example Albanian motër is cognate with English mother, Avestan mātar although semantically Albanian motër has shifted in meaning to sister. Another example is PIE *g'hel- meaning to shine has shifted to several meanings in the daughter languages such as yellow, gold, etc. .

The problem consists in the fact that you are taking for granted the existince of the PIE language in the shape and form the modern linguistics accept. You also are taking for granted that Albanian language is equally positioned in the row of PIE language' daughters like anyone of them.
I am sorry to say that the modern linguistics foundation has been shaped by people who followed a political agenda, and such people didnt follow rigorous scientific criterias when they built the rules for going back to the presumed PIE roots.

Sykalter wrote: So PIE *wed- meaning wet has the meaning of water/wave/wet in the daughter languages

So basically you are saying English is direct branch of the PIE equally like Albanian?

ZEUS10 wrote:Nice, you put a false cognate insinuating me not having classes in linguistics, nice one.

"false cognate" is used to refer to cognates that have different meanings

this is what you did, I was strictly showing you the etymology of udhor(ύδωρ)(water) and you came up with a set of cognates in IE languages, insert among those a false cognate and then make an assumption for me being ignorant on the subject. That was a nice one.

That isn't a false cognate. Find me one linguistics source that states that is a false cognate. I can quote you like a few academic sources if you really want me to paste the links here. More easy if you just look it up yourself...

zojs wrote:well: I'm curious to know, what you mean by 'daughter languages'? I think better way is to say: daughters of Language, because daughter can't have many mothers, only ONE! If you mean by 'daughter' of germanics languages, that's another way... There are many differences between IE and PIE, because isn't any conclusion definitively, who is in real PIE, only says: exist a unit source of all IE languages - and who is for you mother of IE, concerted as PIE?

for example: Albanian word - moter, does not cognate with English - mother, because of moter = sestra/sister has cared for antic family, so became mater/muter/mother, in short shine - mom. Muter/Mater and Mother are more close, and roots sis/ses/schwes (ter), are same roots.

When I wrote daughters, that was in reference to the mother (PIE), not to each other. Albanian motër is cognate to English mother. Cognate does not mean translation of. There are two theories for motër becoming "sister". The first was there was a simple semantic shift. Second in Proto-Albanian, there was a longer phrase something like "mother's girl" for sister and the "girl" part dropped off.

Sykalter wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:Nice, you put a false cognate insinuating me not having classes in linguistics, nice one.

"false cognate" is used to refer to cognates that have different meanings

this is what you did, I was strictly showing you the etymology of udhor(ύδωρ)(water) and you came up with a set of cognates in IE languages, insert among those a false cognate and then make an assumption for me being ignorant on the subject. That was a nice one.

That isn't a false cognate. Find me one linguistics source that states that is a false cognate. I can quote you like a few academic sources if you really want me to paste the links here. More easy if you just look it up yourself...

I truly beleive you must be one of ours . Lets take the things straight without using others' quotes. You said:

Sykalter wrote:Greek hudōr along with Albanian ujë, English water, Hittite wātar, Russian voda, Irish uisge, Lithuanian vanduo, Tocharian wär, Latin unda all come from PIE -. This is a well established root in all IE branches.

Albanian ujë----means water
Hittite wātar----means water(how do you know that???)
Russian voda---means water
Irish uisge------means water
Tocharian wär-means water (how do you know this)
Latin unda-----means ........wave

By all the definitions it is considered false cognate, so please dont insist on that.

zojs wrote:


ANCIENT ILLYRIAN ''GREEK''

Latin word - aqua, I have explained from illyrian - akull, akuj, and word Aquilla, became from the bird of Ice of high mountains - skipe, shqiponja. Ujë, uji - voda/waser/water/leau, are late IE words. If we give any conclusion about what academic science says, we can't to arrive so much only we turn in circle what another saying... Enough to now the world was talking about only 'greek world' - when was ILLYRIAN WOLRD in real and only Albanian old roots can to explain Antique and Antiquity!

Albanian akull is of unknown etymology. Albanian has many words that no other IE languages have. French eau is from Latin aqua. Ujë, uji - voda/waser/water, etc. are not late IE words.

ZEUS10 wrote:By all the definitions it is considered false cognate, so please dont insist on that.

That is not a false cognate because linguists have determined it is not. Find me one academic source that states that is a false cognate. Until you can find one academic source to back your claim, you don't have a basis for such a claim.

ZEUS10 wrote:Hittite wātar----means water(how do you know that???)
Tocharian wär-means water (how do you know this)

I know this because much of these languages have been translated and you can find the information in many academic books. There is plenty of academic material available.

Sykalter wrote:

zojs wrote:


ANCIENT ILLYRIAN ''GREEK''

Latin word - aqua, I have explained from illyrian - akull, akuj, and word Aquilla, became from the bird of Ice of high mountains - skipe, shqiponja. Ujë, uji - voda/waser/water/leau, are late IE words. If we give any conclusion about what academic science says, we can't to arrive so much only we turn in circle what another saying... Enough to now the world was talking about only 'greek world' - when was ILLYRIAN WOLRD in real and only Albanian old roots can to explain Antique and Antiquity!

Albanian akull is of unknown etymology. Albanian has many words that no other IE languages have. French eau is from Latin aqua. Ujë, uji - voda/waser/water, etc. are not late IE words.

The double consonant ll is added sometimes in Albanian noun roots showing amorphous structure forming other nouns:

petull-----pancake--------derives from petë
llaç---- mortar
akull-----ice----------derives from aqu(water)(an obsolete root)
lluce----mud
vullkan-------vulcano
vjell---throw up
ballte--mud
llokme--loaf
etc

Sykalter wrote:

ZEUS10 wrote:Hittite wātar----means water(how do you know that???)
Tocharian wär-means water (how do you know this)

I know this because much of these languages have been translated and you can find the information in many academic books. There is plenty of academic material available.

I am aware of that, but how do you know it has been translated correctly?

for example this is a tablet written in Tocharian: