Disa pyetje historike!

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Disa pyetje historike!

Post  TruthSeeker1912 on Thu May 07, 2009 11:54 am

Pershendetje, une jam "new user" edhe kam nje jave qe po lexoj kete forum edhe me pelqejn shume disa topik qe fliten ketu per historine Shqiptare, por kam disa pyetje qe kisha pas qef ndonje ekpert ti pergjigji ne qofte se keni mundesi.

Shume njerz ketu thojn qe Greket e sotme nuk jan Greket e vjeter. Tani une e di qe shume Grek kane origjinat Arvanite, edhe i kam pa hartat ne vitet 1800's qe thojn Greket e Epirit, Atikes, Peloponesit, etj. kan qene Arvanite, por ju thuani qe Shqiptaret jane pasardhesit e Grekeve, Ilireve, Pellazeve, etj. Por atehere, cfar eshte gjuha Greke e sotme? Ne qofte se ne Shqiptaret jemi Greket e vjeter, une personalisht kur shof shkrimet per Greqishten e vjeter (edhe e di pak alfabetin Grek) nuk mund te kuptoj asgje. Pse eshte kjo qe me gjuhen Shqipe rradhe kuptohen shkrimet Greke? Jam tu pyetur sepse edhe une e kam pas kyt mendje edhe e kam kujtuar kyt gje, por tani dua pak "evidence" sepse nuk shof shume. Pse gjuha Greke e sotme i kupton (jo gjithcka, por shumicen) e shkrimeve te vjeter ne qofte se nuk eshte njesoj si gjuha e vjeter? Keto pyetje i kam ne mendje edhe une nuk i di pergjigjet prandaj jam tu pyetur ketu.

Edhe shume njerz ketu thojn qe Iliret, Maqedonasit, Epiret, Greket, etj. kan ardhur nga Pellazget, por si mund te jete ajo kur keto njerz jane Indo-Europian edhe historianet e linguistet e sotme thojn qe Pellazget e Etrusket NUK kan qene Indo-Europian por kan qene njerzet qe kan jetuar ne ballkan para se kan ardhur Indo-Europianet? Si mund te lidhen Ilirite, Greket, etj. me keto njerze?


Ne qofte se dikush ka pergjigje per keto pyetje me fakte ose "evidence" te rende, kisha qene shume i kenaqur. Faleminderit!

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ZEUS10 on Thu May 07, 2009 2:17 pm

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Pershendetje, une jam "new user" edhe kam nje jave qe po lexoj kete forum edhe me pelqejn shume disa topik qe fliten ketu per historine Shqiptare, por kam disa pyetje qe kisha pas qef ndonje ekpert ti pergjigji ne qofte se keni mundesi.

Shume njerz ketu thojn qe Greket e sotme nuk jan Greket e vjeter. Tani une e di qe shume Grek kane origjinat Arvanite, edhe i kam pa hartat ne vitet 1800's qe thojn Greket e Epirit, Atikes, Peloponesit, etj. kan qene Arvanite, por ju thuani qe Shqiptaret jane pasardhesit e Grekeve, Ilireve, Pellazeve, etj. Por atehere, cfar eshte gjuha Greke e sotme? Ne qofte se ne Shqiptaret jemi Greket e vjeter, une personalisht kur shof shkrimet per Greqishten e vjeter (edhe e di pak alfabetin Grek) nuk mund te kuptoj asgje. Pse eshte kjo qe me gjuhen Shqipe rradhe kuptohen shkrimet Greke? Jam tu pyetur sepse edhe une e kam pas kyt mendje edhe e kam kujtuar kyt gje, por tani dua pak "evidence" sepse nuk shof shume. Pse gjuha Greke e sotme i kupton (jo gjithcka, por shumicen) e shkrimeve te vjeter ne qofte se nuk eshte njesoj si gjuha e vjeter? Keto pyetje i kam ne mendje edhe une nuk i di pergjigjet prandaj jam tu pyetur ketu.

Edhe shume njerz ketu thojn qe Iliret, Maqedonasit, Epiret, Greket, etj. kan ardhur nga Pellazget, por si mund te jete ajo kur keto njerz jane Indo-Europian edhe historianet e linguistet e sotme thojn qe Pellazget e Etrusket NUK kan qene Indo-Europian por kan qene njerzet qe kan jetuar ne ballkan para se kan ardhur Indo-Europianet? Si mund te lidhen Ilirite, Greket, etj. me keto njerze?


Ne qofte se dikush ka pergjigje per keto pyetje me fakte ose "evidence" te rende, kisha qene shume i kenaqur. Faleminderit!

Truthseeker, mire se erdhe ne forumin tone.
Pergjigja e pyetjes tende, eshte e gjate, e zorshme per tu kuptuar, nese njeriu nuk e studjon me themel historine, gjeografine, linguistiken dhe shume gjuhe te huaja. Çdo teme, ne kete forum, qe ka lidhje me greket, shpjegon pak nga pak, pjese te vogla te pyetjes qe po behet.

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  Luboteni on Thu May 07, 2009 2:50 pm

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:
Shume njerz ketu thojn qe Greket e sotme nuk jan Greket e vjeter. Tani une e di qe shume Grek kane origjinat Arvanite, edhe i kam pa hartat ne vitet 1800's qe thojn Greket e Epirit, Atikes, Peloponesit, etj. kan qene Arvanite, por ju thuani qe Shqiptaret jane pasardhesit e Grekeve, Ilireve, Pellazeve, etj. Por atehere, cfar eshte gjuha Greke e sotme? Ne qofte se ne Shqiptaret jemi Greket e vjeter, une personalisht kur shof shkrimet per Greqishten e vjeter (edhe e di pak alfabetin Grek) nuk mund te kuptoj asgje. Pse eshte kjo qe me gjuhen Shqipe rradhe kuptohen shkrimet Greke? Jam tu pyetur sepse edhe une e kam pas kyt mendje edhe e kam kujtuar kyt gje, por tani dua pak "evidence" sepse nuk shof shume. Pse gjuha Greke e sotme i kupton (jo gjithcka, por shumicen) e shkrimeve te vjeter ne qofte se nuk eshte njesoj si gjuha e vjeter? Keto pyetje i kam ne mendje edhe une nuk i di pergjigjet prandaj jam tu pyetur ketu.

Edhe shume njerz ketu thojn qe Iliret, Maqedonasit, Epiret, Greket, etj. kan ardhur nga Pellazget, por si mund te jete ajo kur keto njerz jane Indo-Europian edhe historianet e linguistet e sotme thojn qe Pellazget e Etrusket NUK kan qene Indo-Europian por kan qene njerzet qe kan jetuar ne ballkan para se kan ardhur Indo-Europianet? Si mund te lidhen Ilirite, Greket, etj. me keto njerze?


Ne qofte se dikush ka pergjigje per keto pyetje me fakte ose "evidence" te rende, kisha qene shume i kenaqur. Faleminderit!

Se Greket e sotshem nuk jane greket e vjeter kjo nuk eshte ndonje risi. Per kete ju keni nevoje te madhe t'i ktheheni e ti riktheheni leximit te vepres madhore te J.Fallmerayer - historianit te madh bavarez i cili ishte i pari qe hetoi se greket modern nuk jane pasardhes te grekeve te lashte. Ai mendonte se invazionet sllave e kishin huajesuar aq shume atlasin etnik te grekerve, saqe nuk mund te thuhej se asnje edhe nje pike te gjakut te vjeter helen nuk e kane helenet e kohes se Fallmerayerit.

Geroge Finlay edhe pse nje filohelen nga me te zjarrtet, e pranoi ne vija te pergjitshme teorine e Fallmerayerit. Te gjitha faktet historike, antropologjike, kulturore e gjuhesore flasin se kombi i sotem grek eshte krijuar nga nje perzierje e shqiptareve etnik te cilet formonin zona kompakte kudo neper Greqi dhe nje pjese te konsiderueshme sllavesh.

Per nje pasqyre me te sakte shoh videon ne vijim:




Nderkaq, sa i perket shqipes dhe perkimeve te saja me greqishten e vjeter eshte nje teme goxha interesante dhe se do analize me te shtruar. Perkimet me te medha mes shqipes dhe "greqishtes se vjeter' i gjejme tek Iliada dhe Odiseja. Sic dihet mirefilli, Iliiada dhe Odiseja - keto epe gojore pellazge jane greqizuar dhe kodifikuar ne epoken e Pisistratit me c'rast kane marre nje fasade te greqishtes, mirepo duke ruajtur nje shumesi toponimesh, antroponiesh, hidronimesh, teonimesh, oronimesh, etj etj te origjines jo greke. Strukturat e thurjes se Iliades sic jane hekzametri nuk jane te natyres greke.

Gjithe antroponimet, teonimet e toponimet kryesore te Iliades dhe Odisese gjejne shpjegime bindese permes gjuhes shqipe. Heronjte kryesor si: Akili/Aspetosi, Ajaksi, Helena, Hektori, Priami, Odiseu, Agamemnoni, Aleksandri/Paridi, Odiseu, etj etj

teonimet: Zeusi, Aferdita, Poseidoni, etj

toponimet: Troja

gjejne shpjegime etimologjike shqiptare.

Jam ne gjendje t'i argumentoj shkencerisht qe te gjitha, nese juve e shprehni interesimin.

Sa i perket hamendsimit tuaj se greket e sotem pa problem lexuakan tekstet e antikitetit, eshte per cdo keqardhje. Sigurisht kete e thoni ne mungese te informacionit, sepse gjuha e sotme neogreke nuk ka kurrfare peraqasje me greqishten e vjeter dhe aq me pak me gjuhen homerike.

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  TruthSeeker1912 on Thu May 07, 2009 8:24 pm

ZEUS10 wrote:
TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Pershendetje, une jam "new user" edhe kam nje jave qe po lexoj kete forum edhe me pelqejn shume disa topik qe fliten ketu per historine Shqiptare, por kam disa pyetje qe kisha pas qef ndonje ekpert ti pergjigji ne qofte se keni mundesi.

Shume njerz ketu thojn qe Greket e sotme nuk jan Greket e vjeter. Tani une e di qe shume Grek kane origjinat Arvanite, edhe i kam pa hartat ne vitet 1800's qe thojn Greket e Epirit, Atikes, Peloponesit, etj. kan qene Arvanite, por ju thuani qe Shqiptaret jane pasardhesit e Grekeve, Ilireve, Pellazeve, etj. Por atehere, cfar eshte gjuha Greke e sotme? Ne qofte se ne Shqiptaret jemi Greket e vjeter, une personalisht kur shof shkrimet per Greqishten e vjeter (edhe e di pak alfabetin Grek) nuk mund te kuptoj asgje. Pse eshte kjo qe me gjuhen Shqipe rradhe kuptohen shkrimet Greke? Jam tu pyetur sepse edhe une e kam pas kyt mendje edhe e kam kujtuar kyt gje, por tani dua pak "evidence" sepse nuk shof shume. Pse gjuha Greke e sotme i kupton (jo gjithcka, por shumicen) e shkrimeve te vjeter ne qofte se nuk eshte njesoj si gjuha e vjeter? Keto pyetje i kam ne mendje edhe une nuk i di pergjigjet prandaj jam tu pyetur ketu.

Edhe shume njerz ketu thojn qe Iliret, Maqedonasit, Epiret, Greket, etj. kan ardhur nga Pellazget, por si mund te jete ajo kur keto njerz jane Indo-Europian edhe historianet e linguistet e sotme thojn qe Pellazget e Etrusket NUK kan qene Indo-Europian por kan qene njerzet qe kan jetuar ne ballkan para se kan ardhur Indo-Europianet? Si mund te lidhen Ilirite, Greket, etj. me keto njerze?


Ne qofte se dikush ka pergjigje per keto pyetje me fakte ose "evidence" te rende, kisha qene shume i kenaqur. Faleminderit!

Truthseeker, mire se erdhe ne forumin tone.
Pergjigja e pyetjes tende, eshte e gjate, e zorshme per tu kuptuar, nese njeriu nuk e studjon me themel historine, gjeografine, linguistiken dhe shume gjuhe te huaja. Çdo teme, ne kete forum, qe ka lidhje me greket, shpjegon pak nga pak, pjese te vogla te pyetjes qe po behet.

Po atehere ne qofte se nuk mund te ma shpjegosh mua, si kujton se do ti ja tregosh te verteten te gjith botes?

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  TruthSeeker1912 on Thu May 07, 2009 8:31 pm

@ Luboteni


Shoku, une e di qe me gjak Greket e sotme jane shumica Arvanite, Sllav, Turk krishter, etj. por po flas per gjuhen e tyre.

Tani, une nuk e diskutoj qe gjuha Shqipe ka SHUME SHUME fjal qe jane njisoj si Greqishtja e vjeter, por ajo mendoj eshte sepse kemi jetuar bashke edhe kemi perzi kulturen. Une e di qe Greshitja e sotme eshte shume ndryshe me te vjetren, por prap, une kur shof shkrimet e vjeter te Greqishtes, me Shqip nuk kuptoj asgje, ndoshta nje o dy fjal, por me Greqish kuptohet shumica.

Une dua me dite ne qofte se Shqipja eshte Greqishtja e vjeter, si shpjegohen keto gjera qi po flas une? Cfar eshte gjuha Greke e sotme atehere?

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  AuLoNa on Thu May 07, 2009 8:33 pm

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:@ Luboteni


Shoku, une e di qe me gjak Greket e sotme jane shumica Arvanite, Sllav, Turk krishter, etj. por po flas per gjuhen e tyre.

Tani, une nuk e diskutoj qe gjuha Shqipe ka SHUME SHUME fjal qe jane njisoj si Greqishtja e vjeter, por ajo mendoj eshte sepse kemi jetuar bashke edhe kemi perzi kulturen. Une e di qe Greshitja e sotme eshte shume ndryshe me te vjetren, por prap, une kur shof shkrimet e vjeter te Greqishtes, me Shqip nuk kuptoj asgje, ndoshta nje o dy fjal, por me Greqish kuptohet shumica.

Une dua me dite ne qofte se Shqipja eshte Greqishtja e vjeter, si shpjegohen keto gjera qi po flas une? Cfar eshte gjuha Greke e sotme atehere?


Read more here and check the linguistics section.

http://arbenia.forumotion.com/linguistics-f19/the-pelasgian-dialects-t141.htm

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ZEUS10 on Thu May 07, 2009 10:59 pm

TruthSeeker1912 wrote: Po atehere ne qofte se nuk mund te ma shpjegosh mua, si kujton se do ti ja tregosh te verteten te gjith botes?

Une, i jam pergjigjur pyetjes tende me shume durim, ne shume raste. Megjithate , po i pergjigjem dhe njehere shkurt.
Gjuha greke e re, nuk eshte gjuhe e trasheguar brez pas brezi, ne vatren e thjeshte te familjes greke. Ajo qe sot quhet greqishte e re, eshte adoptimi me i shemtuar, i fotokopjuar, perpunuar, cfytyruar disa here i gjuhes, te popullsive te lashta te Greqise. Gjuha greqishte e re eshte gjuhe e Kishes, e cila nga ana e saj, eshte nje variant artificial i varianteve te varianteve artificiale. Prandaj, gjejme aq shume rrenje te njejta fjalesh me greqishten e vjeter. Por greqishtja e re, megjithese tashme gjuhe e folur, nuk ngjan fare, ne thelb me te vjetren, gjithmone nese do pranonim si te vjeter, ate qe na kane servirur murgjerit bizantine, me te ashtequajturin "kopjim rigoroz " te teksteve ""origjinale"" ne shek te 9-11 pas Krishtit.
Ku jane tekstet origjinale, ku jane kopjet e origjinaleve?
Pse na mbeten vetem ""kopjet rigoroze"" te Kishes dhe asnje, nga ato prej te cilave u kopjuan?
Pervec kesaj, mos i beso perrallat e linguisteve moderne, se gjasme pellazget na qenkan popull para-indoevropian. Vete greqishtja e vjeter, duhet te kete qene nje nga dialektet e shumta pellazge. Jonishtja psh nuk ka si te mos jete gjuha e pellazgeve, sepse Jonet ishin vete pellazge, dhe skemi asnje deshmi nga antikiteti, qe Jonet te kene ndryshuar gjuhen nga pellazgisht ne greqisht. Po keshtu dhe eolishtja, atikishtja dhe gjithe variantet e vjetra pellazge. Pastaj, le te ngrihen e te na thone linguistet moderne, si ka qene gjuha e pellazgeve, qe ata e klasifikojne paraindoevropiane.
Pra fakti qe greket e rinj, flasin nje imitim ( vertet te shemtuar) te gjuhes se vjeter, nuk i ben ata pasardhesit e te vjeterve.
Kjo eshte arsyeja, qe ata nuk permenden asnjehere te vetme, qe nga koha e Ptolemeut, e deri ne shekullin e 18 -te, ne kendveshtrimin etnik. Kjo eshte arsyeja qe grek ne mesjete = ortodoks bizantin, dhe ketu perfshiheshin dhe etnite e tjera natyrale, qe sikur te mos te ishin konjukturat politike te shek. te 19, nuk do ja u degjonte veshi kurre "greqishten", pervecse ne Kishe, ku dhe kishte lindur ne formen qe flitet sot.

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  TruthSeeker1912 on Fri May 08, 2009 10:36 am

ZEUS10 wrote:
TruthSeeker1912 wrote: Po atehere ne qofte se nuk mund te ma shpjegosh mua, si kujton se do ti ja tregosh te verteten te gjith botes?

Une, i jam pergjigjur pyetjes tende me shume durim, ne shume raste. Megjithate , po i pergjigjem dhe njehere shkurt.
Gjuha greke e re, nuk eshte gjuhe e trasheguar brez pas brezi, ne vatren e thjeshte te familjes greke. Ajo qe sot quhet greqishte e re, eshte adoptimi me i shemtuar, i fotokopjuar, perpunuar, cfytyruar disa here i gjuhes, te popullsive te lashta te Greqise. Gjuha greqishte e re eshte gjuhe e Kishes, e cila nga ana e saj, eshte nje variant artificial i varianteve te varianteve artificiale. Prandaj, gjejme aq shume rrenje te njejta fjalesh me greqishten e vjeter. Por greqishtja e re, megjithese tashme gjuhe e folur, nuk ngjan fare, ne thelb me te vjetren, gjithmone nese do pranonim si te vjeter, ate qe na kane servirur murgjerit bizantine, me te ashtequajturin "kopjim rigoroz " te teksteve ""origjinale"" ne shek te 9-11 pas Krishtit.
Ku jane tekstet origjinale, ku jane kopjet e origjinaleve?
Pse na mbeten vetem ""kopjet rigoroze"" te Kishes dhe asnje, nga ato prej te cilave u kopjuan?
Pervec kesaj, mos i beso perrallat e linguisteve moderne, se gjasme pellazget na qenkan popull para-indoevropian. Vete greqishtja e vjeter, duhet te kete qene nje nga dialektet e shumta pellazge. Jonishtja psh nuk ka si te mos jete gjuha e pellazgeve, sepse Jonet ishin vete pellazge, dhe skemi asnje deshmi nga antikiteti, qe Jonet te kene ndryshuar gjuhen nga pellazgisht ne greqisht. Po keshtu dhe eolishtja, atikishtja dhe gjithe variantet e vjetra pellazge. Pastaj, le te ngrihen e te na thone linguistet moderne, si ka qene gjuha e pellazgeve, qe ata e klasifikojne paraindoevropiane.
Pra fakti qe greket e rinj, flasin nje imitim ( vertet te shemtuar) te gjuhes se vjeter, nuk i ben ata pasardhesit e te vjeterve.
Kjo eshte arsyeja, qe ata nuk permenden asnjehere te vetme, qe nga koha e Ptolemeut, e deri ne shekullin e 18 -te, ne kendveshtrimin etnik. Kjo eshte arsyeja qe grek ne mesjete = ortodoks bizantin, dhe ketu perfshiheshin dhe etnite e tjera natyrale, qe sikur te mos te ishin konjukturat politike te shek. te 19, nuk do ja u degjonte veshi kurre "greqishten", pervecse ne Kishe, ku dhe kishte lindur ne formen qe flitet sot.

So ti po thua qe shkrimet qe jan sote nga Greqishtja e vjeter jam kopje fallso qe jan bere ne shekullit 9-11? Per opinionit tuaj, ne kohen e vjeter Iliret, Epirotet, Maqedonasit, Thraket, Greket, te gjithe kan fole te njejten gjuhe korrekt? Por tani ti thua qe Greqishtja u zhduk ne kohen e Romes, edhe u rujt mbrapa nga kisha Ortodokse e Bizantines? Por ktu spo kuptoj nje gje. Pse kisha Bizantine e mori kete gjuhe edhe e falsifikoj kur Iliret akome e flitshin gjuhen Greke? Apo ti po thua kjo ndolli mbrapa kur edhen sllavet ne ballkan edhe Iliria u permbys?


Mire se jam dakort qe shume shkrime nuk kan kopje origjinale, por jan gjet disa shrime ne Greqishten e vjeter para shekullit 9. A i ke pa ndonje here "Gnostic Gospels" qe jan gjetur ne Egjypt? Jan te shkruar ne Greqishten e vjeter, edhe jan nga vitet 50-100 AD? A mund te perkthehen ato me gjuhen Shqipe?

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ZEUS10 on Fri May 08, 2009 11:00 am

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:
So ti po thua qe shkrimet qe jan sote nga Greqishtja e vjeter jam kopje fallso qe jan bere ne shekullit 9-11?
Gjithe literatura e greqishtes se vjeter, eshte rishkruar ne shek. e 9-11 pas Krishtit. Kopjet origjinale ose dhe ato te afertat me to mungojne plotesisht. Nuk dihet pastaj, nese murgjit bizantine i kopjuan besnikerisht kopjet origjinale(ku jane ato???), dhe nuk dihet asgje per vertetesine e permbajtjes se tyre.


Per opinionit tuaj, ne kohen e vjeter Iliret, Epirotet, Maqedonasit, Thraket, Greket, te gjithe kan fole te njejten gjuhe korrekt?

Po korrekt


Por tani ti thua qe Greqishtja u zhduk ne kohen e Romes, edhe u rujt mbrapa nga kisha Ortodokse e Bizantines?

Jo, "u zhduken" greket, se ne fakt ata nuk kane egzistuar asnjehere. Shkrimet u ruajten nga Kisha.

Por ktu spo kuptoj nje gje. Pse kisha Bizantine e mori kete gjuhe edhe e falsifikoj kur Iliret akome e flitshin gjuhen Greke?

Nuk e di nese e ka falsifikuar apo jo, por di qe, Koine dhe greqishtja bizantine, ishin gjuhe konvencionale, te perdorura gjeresisht per qellime: fetare, tregtie, diplomacie, hierarkie. Gjuha e popullit, mund te kete qene baza e kesaj gjuhe, por ajo evoloi natyrshem ne shqipen e sotme, kurse ""greqishtja"", "ngriu" ne format konvencionale te njojtura per klasat e interesuara si :kleriket, aristokracia tregetaret. Pra, kjo forme e ngurte gjysem-artificiale, perdorej nga elita si shenje diturie dhe superioriteti.


Apo ti po thua kjo ndolli mbrapa kur edhen sllavet ne ballkan edhe Iliria u permbys?

Kur e thashe une kete?

Mire se jam dakort qe shume shkrime nuk kan kopje origjinale, por jan gjet disa shrime ne Greqishten e vjeter para shekullit 9
.

Sigurisht qe jane gjetur, shumica derrmuese i perkasin sundimit te Kishes, kurse mbishkrimet e antikitetit nuk japin shume informacion per gjuhen popullore.


A i ke pa ndonje here "Gnostic Gospels" qe jan gjetur ne Egjypt? Jan te shkruar ne Greqishten e vjeter, edhe jan nga vitet 50-100 AD? A mund te perkthehen ato me gjuhen Shqipe?

Shqipen e sotme e ndajne 2000 vjete nga ato mbishkrime te nje gjuhe konvencionale, megjithate, qe ne titull "gnostic" e ke nje fjale shqip:



Nga fjala """greke"" γνώσις-te njohesh


Last edited by ZEUS10 on Fri May 08, 2009 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ZEUS10 on Fri May 08, 2009 11:18 am

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:

Mire se jam dakort qe shume shkrime nuk kan kopje origjinale, por jan gjet disa shrime ne Greqishten e vjeter para shekullit 9. A i ke pa ndonje here "Gnostic Gospels" qe jan gjetur ne Egjypt? Jan te shkruar ne Greqishten e vjeter, edhe jan nga vitet 50-100 AD? A mund te perkthehen ato me gjuhen Shqipe?

Gnostic Gospels i perkasin 2-4 pas Krishtit
Ky eshte njeri prej tyre:



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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  TruthSeeker1912 on Fri May 08, 2009 11:56 am

Kisha Ortodokse e ruajti kete gjuhe artificiale, edhe ne shekullin 19 ti thua qe filloj kjo krijim i popullit Grek falso? Por kush e filloj revolucionin per pavaresine Greke? Por revolucionin para asaj ne vitet 1750? E di qi ka pas disa Anglez, por si muajet ato me e mashtru te gjith popullin per te folur kyt gjuhe?

Ne kete harte, ato me ngjyre jeshile = Shqiptar.

Ato me ngjyre bojkafe = Turk

Por ato me ngjyre te verdhe, cfar jan? Nuk jan Grek?






Ne vitin 1809 PARA se filloj lufta per pavaresie Greke, lexo kete:

"Besides his native tongue (Albanian), he talks Greek fluently"

John Hobhouse when he met Ali Pashe Tepelena.

Atehere cfar eshte kjo gjuhe "Greke" qe paska folur Ali Pasha?

Ja edhe dicka tjeter:

"The story goes, that it was the misfortune of Zofreni, a Greek lady of Ioannina, the most lovely of her sex, to be admired at the same time by Ali and by one of his sons"

Paska pas disa "Greek" ne vitin 1809 (edhe ne Janine qe eshte toke Shqiptare)?

Source: http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts19/AH1809_2.html



PS

Une nuk jam tu mbrojtur Greket, me fal ne qofte se ti kujton se une po flas me karakter negativ per jua ose historine Shqiptare, por une degjoj shume gjera nga Shqiptaret, ka nje her ekzagjirojn shume, edhe une dua te di vetem te VERTETEN, jo propaganden Shqiptare, apo Greke.
Diten e mire! Wink

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ZEUS10 on Fri May 08, 2009 12:03 pm

Jan te shkruar ne Greqishten e vjeter, edhe jan nga vitet 50-100 AD

Jane shkruajtur ne Coptic, dhe ""mendohet"" (si gjithmone !! ) se jane kopjuar nga "greqishtja"(cila greqishte?) ne shek 2-4 pas Krishtit.

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ZEUS10 on Fri May 08, 2009 12:20 pm

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Kisha Ortodokse e ruajti kete gjuhe artificiale, edhe ne shekullin 19 ti thua qe filloj kjo krijim i popullit Grek falso?

Kisha Ortodokse, dhe nje rrjet i gjere tregetaresh, diplomatesh dhe intelektualesh.


Por kush e filloj revolucionin per pavaresine Greke? Por revolucionin para asaj ne vitet 1750? E di qi ka pas disa Anglez, por si muajet ato me e mashtru te gjith popullin per te folur kyt gjuhe?


Ska ndodhur kurrfare Revolucioni, ishin Suliotet(shqiptare ortodokse) qe luftonin kunder feudaleve myslimane(kryesisht came), dhe keta te fundit mobilizonin ushtrine "turke" qe ishte pothuajse teresisht e perbere nga shqiptare lokale.

Ne kete harte, ato me ngjyre jeshile = Shqiptar.

Ato me ngjyre bojkafe = Turk

Por ato me ngjyre te verdhe, cfar jan? Nuk jan Grek?




Aleatet anglo-franko-ruse, filluan te skiconin ne hartat e tyre nje race inegzistente, qe para fitoreve ne terren te "grekeve"(lexo: arvanitasve ortodokse). Ashtu sic thashe dhe me siper, pervec nje elite greqishtfolese nuk ka pasur "greke" te tjere ne Greqi, para "revolucionit" te fituar ne letra nga........ Rusia dhe Franca.


Ne vitin 1809 PARA se filloj lufta per pavaresie Greke, lexo kete:


"Besides his native tongue (Albanian), he talks Greek fluently"

John Hobhouse when he met Ali Pashe Tepelena.

Atehere cfar eshte kjo gjuhe "Greke" qe paska folur Ali Pasha?

Gjuha greke asnjehere nuk ka pushuar se foluri dhe te mesuari, por kjo kurre nuk eshte bere ne vatren e thjeshte te familjes, para 'revolucionit', te pakten ne Mesjete.

Ja edhe dicka tjeter:

"The story goes, that it was the misfortune of Zofreni, a Greek lady of Ioannina, the most lovely of her sex, to be admired at the same time by Ali and by one of his sons"

Paska pas disa "Greek" ne vitin 1809 (edhe ne Janine qe eshte toke Shqiptare)?

Source: http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts19/AH1809_2.html

Po, ishte rrjeti i tregetareve, dhe sunduesve cifligaro-fetar.




Une nuk jam tu mbrojtur Greket, me fal ne qofte se ti kujton se une po flas me karakter negativ per jua ose historine Shqiptare, por une degjoj shume gjera nga Shqiptaret, ka nje her ekzagjirojn shume, edhe une dua te di vetem te VERTETEN, jo propaganden Shqiptare, apo Greke.
Diten e mire!Wink


Une jam shume i ekujlibruar ne studimin e historise, do ta pranoja te verteten dhe po te ishte ndryshe, por te garantoj qe deri me tani, askush nuk me ka provuar te kunderten, dmth ate ne favor te tezes greke.

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ABC on Fri May 08, 2009 1:18 pm

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:



Edhe pse nuk jam historiane e aq me pak linguiste, mua me ben pershtypje pse 'greket' (me ngjyre te verdhe) duhet te ndanin Illirine ne dy pjese (me ngjyre jeshile, sic the dhe vete)? Per me teper ne e dime mire se Peloponezi i sotem eshte Moreja e dikurshme.
Pra konkluzioni im i shkurter thote: Kjo harte eshte falsifikuar ne ngjyra!

Ps. Zeus10 me fal per kete nderhyrje....

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  TruthSeeker1912 on Sat May 09, 2009 7:06 pm

Zeus10

Por "Rosetta Stone" qe eshte gjetur ne Egjypt edhe nje pjese e asaj eshte e shkruar ne Greqishten Klasike, ajo eshte nga viti 196 BC. Si eshte perkthyer ajo?

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  TruthSeeker1912 on Sat May 09, 2009 7:16 pm

ZEUS10 wrote:
Aleatet anglo-franko-ruse, filluan te skiconin ne hartat e tyre nje race inegzistente, qe para fitoreve ne terren te "grekeve"(lexo: arvanitasve ortodokse). Ashtu sic thashe dhe me siper, pervec nje elite greqishtfolese nuk ka pasur "greke" te tjere ne Greqi, para "revolucionit" te fituar ne letra nga........ Rusia dhe Franca.

Ne qofte se ajo harte eshte propagande nga Anglezet, Francezet apo Ruset, pse akoma i kan vuar Shqiptaret e Atikes, Epirit, e Morejes ne harte? Pse se kan bere harten me u duke sikur eshte puro "Greke" ?


ZEUS10 wrote:Gjuha greke asnjehere nuk ka pushuar se foluri dhe te mesuari, por kjo kurre nuk eshte bere ne vatren e thjeshte te familjes, para 'revolucionit', te pakten ne Mesjete.

A mund te ma shpjegosh edhe nje here kete sepse nuk po e kuptoj.

If you dont mind im going to write this in English because it comes more naturaly to me since i never went to school in Albania.

So what your saying is, modern Greek is a mock off version of Koine Greek, which was kept alive by the Orthodox Byzantine church, correct? And Koine Greek is the Attic dialect of Ancient Greek right? But i still dont get why would the church need to keep Koine alive when as you say the Illyrians, Macedonians, Epirotes, etj. all spoke the same language as ancient Greeks? It's not like the language was going extinct so they needed to save it. I still dont get that? If that is true, then why did the churche's version of Koine become such foreign to the original ancient Greek (which you say is the ancestor of modern Albanian)? Why did it become so different than Shqip?

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  TruthSeeker1912 on Mon May 11, 2009 9:54 am

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:Zeus10

Por "Rosetta Stone" qe eshte gjetur ne Egjypt edhe nje pjese e asaj eshte e shkruar ne Greqishten Klasike, ajo eshte nga viti 196 BC. Si eshte perkthyer ajo?

A mundet dikush që flet Greqisht këtu të më thojn a është e mundshem me e përkthyer këtë shkrime (3rd row) me Greqishten e sotme? Flm shumë!



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Rosetta_Stone_BW.jpeg

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ZEUS10 on Mon May 11, 2009 11:12 am



Eshte shume veshtire ta perkthesh sepse dhe nuk dallohet mire, dhe njekohosisht duhet ndare korrekt, por une ne rreshtin e pare dalloj : mbretin e therren(e vrane)...etj.
Interesante eshte fjala ethyka=e therren. A nuk eshte ajo e prejardhur prej thyka, a nuk eshte kjo vegla therese, prerese?

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  AuLoNa on Mon May 11, 2009 11:14 am

ZEUS10 wrote:

Eshte shume veshtire ta perkthesh sepse dhe nuk dallohet mire, dhe njekohosisht duhet ndare korrekt, por une ne rreshtin e pare dalloj : mbretin e therren(e vrane)...etj.
Interesante eshte fjala ethyka=e therren. A nuk eshte ajo e prejardhur prej thyka, a nuk eshte kjo vegla therese, prerese?


Ajo me vajti edhe mua ne mendje sa e lexova. Interesante!

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  TruthSeeker1912 on Mon May 11, 2009 12:17 pm

ZEUS10 wrote:

Eshte shume veshtire ta perkthesh sepse dhe nuk dallohet mire, dhe njekohosisht duhet ndare korrekt, por une ne rreshtin e pare dalloj : mbretin e therren(e vrane)...etj.
Interesante eshte fjala ethyka=e therren. A nuk eshte ajo e prejardhur prej thyka, a nuk eshte kjo vegla therese, prerese?


Por ky eshte problemi o Zeus, qe Shqipja perkthen vetem disa fjale ne Greqishten e vjeter, por nuk e perkthen te gjithe tekstin. Prandaj deshta qe dikush qe e din Greqishten e sotme te me thote a ka kuptim a jo.

Ajo dihet qe disa fjal mund te qene si Shqip, por te gjithe gjuhet Indo-Europiane kane lidhje me njeri tjetrin, nuk do te thote qe eshte e njejta gjuhe.

Pershembull, fjala ne Greqishte e vjeter qe ke aty lart: βασιλεu = King

Ne Greqishten e sotme βασιλιάς = King

Por ne Shqip King = Mbret

??? Si ndoll ky ndryshim?

Mendimi im personal eshte (edhe une nuk jam linguist, por me pelqen shume historia edhe kam filluar te mesoj pak Greqisht) eshte qe Iliret, Epiriotet, edhe Maqedonasit kan folur te njejten gjuhe (Nenen e Shqipes sot) por Greket e kan pasur gjuhe ndryshe. Tani eshte e padiskutueshme qe Ilirishtja do te kete disa fjal njisoj me Greqishten, sepse keto dy popuj kan jetuar bashke per 3000 vjet edhe kan te njejten nene (PIE) por nuk me duket se gjuha Ilire me gjuhen Greke ka qene krejt njisoj.

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ZEUS10 on Mon May 11, 2009 12:54 pm

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:

Por ky eshte problemi o Zeus, qe Shqipja perkthen vetem disa fjale ne Greqishten e vjeter, por nuk e perkthen te gjithe tekstin. Prandaj deshta qe dikush qe e din Greqishten e sotme te me thote a ka kuptim a jo.

Ajo dihet qe disa fjal mund te qene si Shqip, por te gjithe gjuhet Indo-Europiane kane lidhje me njeri tjetrin, nuk do te thote qe eshte e njejta gjuhe.

Pershembull, fjala ne Greqishte e vjeter qe ke aty lart: βασιλεu = King

Ne Greqishten e sotme βασιλιάς = King

Por ne Shqip King = Mbret

??? Si ndoll ky ndryshim?

Mendimi im personal eshte (edhe une nuk jam linguist, por me pelqen shume historia edhe kam filluar te mesoj pak Greqisht) eshte qe Iliret, Epiriotet, edhe Maqedonasit kan folur te njejten gjuhe (Nenen e Shqipes sot) por Greket e kan pasur gjuhe ndryshe. Tani eshte e padiskutueshme qe Ilirishtja do te kete disa fjal njisoj me Greqishten, sepse keto dy popuj kan jetuar bashke per 3000 vjet edhe kan te njejten nene (PIE) por nuk me duket se gjuha Ilire me gjuhen Greke ka qene krejt njisoj.

Jo nuk eshte ashtu βασιλεu eshte fjale e perbere βασι + λεoς ku fjala e dyte do te le(os)=popull =pjelle=me le( me lind):



kurse fjala e pare eshte fjala tjeter shqip bashi=kreu=para=perpara(te cilen disa gabimisht e quajne turqisht).




ahead
në krye, përpara, para
Pra fjala bash=para=kre



Pra basileos=bashi i popullit=kreu i njerezve.

Kurse fjala mbre-t eshte sinonim, e formuar prej mbreh=ve nen zgjedhe, dhe i drejtoj drejt nje qellimi.

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ZEUS10 on Tue May 12, 2009 4:46 pm

TruthSeeker1912 wrote:
Por ky eshte problemi o Zeus, qe Shqipja perkthen vetem disa fjale ne Greqishten e vjeter, por nuk e perkthen te gjithe tekstin. Prandaj deshta qe dikush qe e din Greqishten e sotme te me thote a ka kuptim a jo.

Ajo dihet qe disa fjal mund te qene si Shqip, por te gjithe gjuhet Indo-Europiane kane lidhje me njeri tjetrin, nuk do te thote qe eshte e njejta gjuhe.

Pershembull, fjala ne Greqishte e vjeter qe ke aty lart: βασιλεu = King

Ne Greqishten e sotme βασιλιάς = King

Por ne Shqip King = Mbret

??? Si ndoll ky ndryshim?

Mendimi im personal eshte (edhe une nuk jam linguist, por me pelqen shume historia edhe kam filluar te mesoj pak Greqisht) eshte qe Iliret, Epiriotet, edhe Maqedonasit kan folur te njejten gjuhe (Nenen e Shqipes sot) por Greket e kan pasur gjuhe ndryshe. Tani eshte e padiskutueshme qe Ilirishtja do te kete disa fjal njisoj me Greqishten, sepse keto dy popuj kan jetuar bashke per 3000 vjet edhe kan te njejten nene (PIE) por nuk me duket se gjuha Ilire me gjuhen Greke ka qene krejt njisoj.

Pa dashur te beje aleance me permbledhesin e ketyre fakteve te meposhtme, mund te nxirret kollaj konkluzioni qe greket nuk jane pasardhesit natyrale te grekeve te vjeter, menyren se si ata flasin greqisht shpjegohet ketu:

1. "The [Greek] claim to southern Albania rests entirely on the assumption that the majority of the population is Greek. The Greeks are stated to number 120,000 and Albanians 80,000. But who are the ´Greeks´? At least five sixths of them, if not more are Christian Albanians of the Orthodox faith, Albanians in sentiment and language, who because they acknowledge the Patriarch of Constantinople are declared to be Greek in point of ´national consciousness´." ("The Nineteenth Century and After XIX-XX a Monthly Review", founded by James Knowles, Vol. LXXXVI, July-December 1919, page 645.)

2. "Did the Greeks constitute a race apart from the Albanians the Slavs and the Vlachs? Yes and no. High school students were told that the ´other races´, i.e. the Slavs the Albanians and the Vlachs ´having been Hellenized with the years in terms of mores and customs, are now being assimilated into the Greeks´." ("Greece in the 20th Century", Editors Theodore A. Couloumbis, Theodore Kariots, Fotini Bellou, page 24.)

3. "The Turkish village which formally clustered around the base of the Acropolis [old Athens] has not disappeared: it forms a whole quarter of the town.

An immense majority of the population in this quarter is composed of Albanians." ("Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day", by Edmund About, page 160.)

4. "Through the end of the revolution in 1830, Greeks, including most of the nineteenth-century nationalists, seemed to have had a vague but firm sense of continuity from ancient to modern Greece, though this was not articulated in racial terms but on the basis of a common language, history and consciousness. In effect at this time, whoever called themselves a Greek was a Greek. It is because of this that many Greek-speaking Albanians, Slavs, Rumanians and Vlachs were easily assimilated and indeed became important players in Greek patriotism at the time." ("The Empty Cradle of Democracy", by Alexandra Halkias, page 59.)

5. "The first Greek who had a plan for insurrection and for a liberated Greece was Rhigas of Valestino.

Rhigas was the author of poems, revolutionary proclamations and a constitution…

In this document he spoke of a sovereign people of the proposed state as including ´without distinction of religion and language – Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs, Armenians, Turks and every other race´.

It seems that in their minds the distinction between ´Greek´ and ´Orthodox´ was still blurred." ("Appleton´s Annual Cyclopedia and register of important events 1901", Third Series Volume VI, page 113.)

6. "There cannot be an Athenian alive today who can trace a direct line of descent from classical times to the present day without leaving Athens. Because of numerous and protracted foreign occupations, true Athenians were a relatively small minority even in the Age of Pericles. In a later period, the city was suffering from severe depopulation and was re-stocked with Albanians. At the time of Greek independence in 1834, Athens was a miserable village with a population of only 6,000." ("Insight Guides Athens Greece Series", page 42.)

7. "It is one of a group made famous in the Greek revolution of 1821 by the bravery of its Albanian settlers, in defense of a country which they had never adopted for their own till this moment of danger came.

They brought to it moreover, the hoarded wealth of many years. Albanian captains, Albanian ships and Albanian gold became the strength of the Greek and the dread of the Turk. The successful close of the revolution found them as firmly allied with the Greek nationality as they have been previously alien to it, and there are now no names more honoured and beloved in Athens, no families more influential in its polite circles, than those of the Albanian leaders in the war of 1821, the Tombazis, the Miaulis the Condouriottis." ("The Atlantic Monthly: A magazine of literature, science, art and politics Vol. XLIX, January 1882, page 31.)

8. "Among the numerous islands of the Egian, arise several barren rocks, some of which are however gifted by nature with small and commodious heavens. Of this number are Hydra, Spezzia and Ipsara, the first two close to the Eastern shore of the Peloponnesus, and the latter not far from Scio, on the Asiatic coast. Tyranny and Want had driven some families, whose origin, like that of nearly all the peasants, who inhabited proper Greece, was Albanian, to take refuge on these desolate crags, where they built villages and sought a precarious existence by fishing." ("The Greek Revolution; in origin and progress", by Edward Blaquiere Esq., page 21.)

9. "In reality however, just before the Greek war of independence, most Greeks still referred to themselves as ´Romans. Vlachavas, the priest rebel leader who rose against the Ottomans, declared, ´A Romneos I was born a Romneos I will die." ("Bloodlines from the Ethnic Pride to Ethnic Terrorism", by Vamik Volkan, page 121..

10. "Constantinople and all continental Greece were for centuries ruled and occupied by the Romans, and during many subsequent centuries invaded and colonized by Slavs. The Crusades and the Latin conquest brought a large influx of western Europeans, commonly called Franks, and, in later times, extensive Albanian settlements were made in Greek districts. Clearly, the modern Greek must be of very mixed blood." ("Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, page 267.)

11. "But it has been argued that since the modern day Greeks are not the descendents of the ancient Greeks: ´The Star of Vergina is not a Greek symbol, except in the sense that it happens to have been found in the territory of the present-day Greek state…´." ("Experimenting with Democracy Regime change in the Balkans", edited by Geoffrey Pridham and Tom Gallagher, page 271.)

12. "Contemporary historians state the Emperor Basilius also was a Sclavonian; many cities bearing Sclavonian appellations still exist in Greece, as, for instance, Platza, Stratza, Lutzana,…" ("The Foreign Quarterly Review Vol. XXVI", published in October M. DCCC. XL., 1841, page 73.)

13. "By the fourteenth century Orthodox Christian Arvanites had made their way into the Greek thema of the Byzantine Empire, which largely comprised the land that now constitutes Greece. They first came to Attica as early as 1883…They did not complete their immigration until 1759, when Sultan Murat III offered them land in Athens…Thus the Arvanites were already inhabiting Athens when the city became the capital of Greece in 1834." ("Fragments of Death Fables of Identity An Athenian Anthropography" by Nani Panourgia, page 27.)

14. "I have already said, and I will repeat it, that not one-fifth of the present population can with justice be called Greeks. The remainder are Slavonians, Albanians and Turks, with a slight infusion of Venetian blood." ("Travels in Greece and Russia", by Bayard Tailor, 1872, page 262.)

15. "It should be stressed, however, that the Greeks as an ethnic community during this period [1840´s] included many Grecophone or Hellenized Vlachs, Serbs or Orthodox Albanians." ("Greece and the Balkans Identities, Perceptions and Cultural Encounters since the Enlightenment", edited by Dimitris Tziovas, page6.)

16. "All Greek soldiers are required to be able to read and write, and if a conscript on joining has not acquired those rudiments of education, he is put to school. Not withstanding, the educational efforts of the government, as many as 30 percent proven fifteen years or so ago to be completely illiterate, while not more than 25 per cent had advanced beyond the ´three R´s´. This may be partly accounted for by the fact that these conscripts included both Albanians from the settlements in Attica and other parts of the Kingdom and pastoral Koutso-Vlachs, all of whom habitually speak their own dialects and learn Greek only as a foreign tongue." ("Greece of the Hellenes", by Lucy M. J. Garnett, 1914, pages 33 and 34.)

17. "I could speak Turkish, and the Macedonian dialect, besides my own Greek tongue, and as a curious boy in the holidays I had been here and there, wishing to know more of the world round me and the people who lived in other villages than mine.

Being neither Turkish nor Greek, we called them Bulgarian, but their language is not Bulgarian, but the Macedonian dialect, and I found lovable people among them, honest, hospitable and kind." ("When I was a Boy in Greece" by George Demetrios, pages 131 and 132.)

18. "The migration of the Albanians is the best attested and in many ways the most instructive of migrations into Greece….

We had difficulty staying because they were rather suspicious of us, but we stayed with a man who talked Greek as his main language, although he talked to his wife in Albanian…

The ancestors of these people probably came to the Epidaurus in the fourteenth or fifteenth century, but they were still talking Albanian as their mother tongue in 1930….

Albanian was the language they talked among themselves, but they could also talk Greek. This was their second language although they lived in Greece….

The one in Epirus which was still Albanian in its customs and its language had probably been there since about 1400…

A group of 10,000 Albanians with their families and their flocks appeared there, and asked if they could be admitted to the Peloponnesus. They were accepted by Theodore, who was the principle ruler of the Peloponnesus…" ("Greece Old and New", by Nicholas Hammond, edited by Tom Winnifrith and Penelope Murray, Pages 39 to 44.)

19. "…so, in the Middle Ages, these Albanian mountaineers have brought both war like spirit, bright costume, and beauty of person, to refresh the Hellenic race. There are still, even in Attica, districts where Albanian is the common language; there are Albanian names famous in Greek annals, especially in the great war of independence (1821-1831) and even among the sailors of Hydra, so famed for their commercial enterprise and their deeds of war, the chief families were Albanian in origin." ("Greek Pictures drawn with pen and pencil" by J. P. Mahaffy, M.A. D.D., 1890, pages 20 and 21.)

20. "Groups of men in stately Albanian costume, with their grand walk and graceful air, stalk up and down with eastern impassibility, price an article, call for a ´fotia´ (brazier of coals for lighting cigarettes) , at the cafés, or converse in the strange patois of Greece about the last conclusion of the ´vouli´ or house of delegates." ("Greek Vignettes a sail in the Greek Seas, Summer of 1877", by James Albert Herrison, page 148.)

21. "In the 1770´s a fiery Orthodox preacher, the monk Kosmas of Aetolia, tried to stem the tide of mass conversions to Islam in the Northern Greek lands by founding Greek schools in a score of villages in Thessaly, Epirus and Macedonia, where the language had long been abandoned for Albanian, Vlach or Slav, and obliged peasants to speak only Greek." ("Greece the Modern Sequel from 1821 to the Present", by John S. Koliopoulos and Thanos M. Veremis, page 159.)

22. "…following the alleged discovery of Slavic buildings by the German excavator at Olympia. The claims were answered by Paparrigopoulos himself, by reinstating his 1843 position that there was indeed a Slavic presence in the Peloponnesus in the Middle Ages, but that the Greeks need not worry because the Slavs were culturally absorbed…" ("The Nation and its Ruins", by Yannis Hamilakis, page 115.)

23. "In 1358 the Albanians overran Epirus, Acarnania and Anatolia and established two principalities under their leaders…

Naupactas fell into their control in 1378…

Other Albanians and Vlachs invaded the Catalan principality of Boeotia and Attica, and a great many Albanians settled there as peasant-farmers in 1368 and later….

The penetration of the Greek mainland which we have described occurred during the hundred or more years after 1325." ("Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas", by Nicholas G. L. Hammond, page 59.)


continues..

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ZEUS10 on Tue May 12, 2009 4:47 pm

.....................

24. "When arriving by airplane at Athens, one lands at the new airport at Spata. Spata is a town situated in the Messogia region that bears and Arvanite name that means ´axe´ or ´sword´ (in Greek ´spaps´, spaya from which derives the Albanian Spata). The term ´Arvanite´ is the medieval equivalent of ´Albanian´. It is retained today for the descendants of the Albanian tribes that migrated to the Greek lands during the period covering two centuries, from the thirteenth to the fifteenth." ("Hellenism Culture, Identity, and Ethnicity from Antiquity to Modernity", edited by Katerina Zacharia, page 230.)
25. "With them it would be a resurrection, accomplished, no doubt, after vast pains and many troubles, the more so since the Greeks are a composite people among whom the descendents of the veritable Greeks of old are in great minority. The majority are of Albanian and Suliot blood, races which even the Romans found untamable." ("In Greek Waters: a story of the Grecian War of Independence (1821-1827), by G. A. Henty, 1893, page 40.)

26. "Where are we to look for the descendents of the Greeks of old? Travelers tell us that, as late as the sixteenth century, Athens was but a castle with a small village; and that Sparta, divided by two tribes of the Slavi, the Ezeriti and the Milingi, had not only lost her ancient name, but it was impossible to recognize the site in which she had stood of old." ("History of the Island of Corfu" by Henry Jervis-White Jervis ESQ., page 250.)

27. "General interest was first aroused by a controversy as to the racial derivation of modern Greeks. The war of Independence had won the sympathy of Europe; and it was a rude shock both to Greece and to her champions when Fallmerayer announced that her inhabitants were virtually Slavs. The race of the Hellenes he declared in his ´History of the Morea´ was routed out, and Athens was unoccupied from the sixth to the tenth century. Only its literature and a few ruins survived to tell that the Greek people had ever existed. What the Slavs had began the Albanians completed." ("History and Historians in the Nineteenth Century", by G. P. Gooch, 1918, page 491.)

28. "There were few Muslims here; the inhabitants largely of Albanian stock, were only imperfectly assimilated into the Greek nation…" ("Politics in Modern Greece", by Keith R. Legg, page 48.)

"The term ´Greek´ differentiates the language spoken by inhabitants of modern Greece from the languages of the surrounding countries; but there is disagreement on what the Greek language was, is, or should be. At the time of independence, the range of local dialects was significant; substantial portions of the population spoke Albanian." ("Politics in Modern Greece", by Keith R. Legg, page 86.)

29. "…followed by violence, recourse was had to arms, and the two elder brothers united against Vely, the offspring of a slave; who being forced to expatriate himself, embraced the perilous profession of those Albanian knights errant, more commonly known by the appellation of kleftes or brigands." ("The Life of Ali Pasha of Jannina, 1823, page 26.)

30. "There is the case of Karamanlides, a predominantly Turkish-speaking Christian Orthodox people, who were forced to go to Greece although they did not necessarily identify ´ethnically´ with the Greeks. At the time of the exchange they numbered as many as 400,000." ("Mediating the Nation News, Audiences and the Politics of Identity", Mirca Madianou, page 31.)

31, "Morea…as Fallmerayer traces it back to the Slavic word ´more´, the sea which nearly encircles the Morea. The Morea forms the most southern part of the Kingdom of Greece and is divided into the monarchies of Argolis, Corinth, Lakonis, Messenia, Archadia, Achaea and Elis.

Overrun by the Goths and Vandals, it became prey, in the second half of the 8th c. to bands of Slavic invaders who found it wasted by war and pestilence." ("International Cyclopedia a Compendium of Human Knowledge", American Editor-in-Chief Richard Gleason Green, 1890, page 204.)

32. "This point is made in almost all publications on Albanian nationalism (e.g. Skendi 1967 and 1980). In the nineteenth century, the Greek historian Constantinos Paparrigopoulos considered the Albanians a ´race´ that could be acculturated into Hellenism. His viewpoint was greatly influenced by the considerable Albanian contribution to the Greek war of independence (1821-1828)." ("Nationalism Globalization and Orthodoxy" by Victor Roudometof, page 156.)

33. "Rhigas of Valentino….author of poems, revolutionary proclamations and a constitution…

In this document he spoke of a sovereign people of the proposed state as including ´without distinction of religion and language – Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs, Armenians, Turks and every other race´." ("Nations and States", by Hugh Seton-Watson, page 113.)

34. "As of 2002 more than 98,000 foreign pupils were enrolled in Greek schools, accounting for almost 9 percent of the overall school population. As regards nationality, 72 percent are from Albania.

Clearly, Albanians are not unknown to Greeks and the new relationships emerging from the contemporary migratory context can be seen as superimposing themselves into a pre-existing trans-Balkan context." ("The New Albanian Migration", edited by Russell King, Nicola Mai and Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, page 155.)

35 "Next to them in this respect are the modern Greeks, who, for the most part, are of Sclavonian origin, and, where they are not purely Sclavonian, are a cross-breed in which Sclavonian enters very largely." ("The Phrenological Journal and Magazine of Moral Science for the year 1843", Vol. XIV, page 246.)

36. "The modern Greeks are largely of Slavic origin. They are not the descendents of the ancient Greeks. That noble race, greatly mixed with barbarian blood during the middle ages, was almost completely destroyed in the course of the frequent uprisings against Turkish rule. Slavic immigrants gradually repopulated the country." ("The Popular Science Monthly", edited by J. McKeen Cattell", Volume LXXV, July to December 1909, page 591.)

37. "There was little interest as to the nationality of the rayahs while Turkish rule was strong. They were nearly all Christians of the Byzantine type, those in Europe at least, and were hence regarded as one people, for oriental theocracy cannot conceive of nationality apart from religion. They themselves knew the differences in their origins and in such traditions as they had: some were Slavs, some Vlachs and some Albanians…" ("Political Science Quarterly" edited by the faculty of science of Columbia University, Volume twenty-third, 1908, page 307.)

38. "Since the Christian era, as we have said, a successive downpour of foreigners from the north into Greece has ensued. In the sixth century came the Avars and the Slavs, bringing death and disaster. A more potent and lasting influence upon the country was probably produced by the slower and more peaceful infiltration of the Slavs into Thessaly and Epirus from the end of the seventh century onward.

The most important immigration of all is probably that of the Albanians, who, from the thirteenth century until the advent of the Turks incessantly overran the land." ("The Races of Europe a Sociological Study", by William Z. Ripley PhD, 1910, page 408.)

39. "When the Macedonians became rulers of Greece, Athens had twenty-one thousand citizens, ten thousand resident aliens and four-hundred thousand slaves." ("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, page 86.)

"The resident aliens were mainly Aryan-Hemitic-Semetic-Egyptian-Negroid mongrels." ("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, page 87.)

"In the course of time the Hellenic blood was corrupted to a still greater extent. In 146 BC the Romans conquered Greece…When Mummius took Corinth…All the men were killed, the women and children were sold into slavery. Later the Goths invaded Greece…laid waste the land, and expelled or exterminated the inhabitants." ("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, pages 88 and 89.)

"The only difference between modern Greeks and the other Balkanacs lies in the fact that the environment of the modern Greeks is the environment of the Hellenes. The environment, however, has no power whatsoever to change the mongrel into a race, and the Greeks have not been changed by it." ("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, page 93.)

40. "The ethnographic record certainly shows that Rhigas could have identified as both Vlach and Greek, and even preferred one over another in different circumstances. The Koutsovlach contribution to Greek independence is well attested." ("Modern Greece a Cultural Poetics", by Vangelis Calotychos, page 44.)

"He consequently never traveled to Greece to implement the second part of his plan. Like many Philhellenes and Diaspora figures Rhigas never did set foot in Greece, which was fitting for one whose image of the place bore many characteristics of a European discourse located and produced outside of the Greek mainland." ("Modern Greece a Cultural Poetics", by Vangelis Calotychos, page 47.)

41. "In the last year of the 15th century, and the opening years of the 16th, when the Morea was again the battlefield of the Turks and Venetians, the occupants of the plain of Argos and portions of Attica were practically exterminated, and Albanian colonists began to reoccupy the lands." ("The Customs and Lore of Modern Greece", by Rennell Rodd, 1892, page 17.)

42. "Modern Greece is so flimsy and fragile, that it goes to pieces entirely when confronted with the roughest fragment of the old. But there is very little of it, and if you choose you may see exactly what the Greeks of the 5th century saw, and, the people of Athens are, of course, no more Athenian than I am." ("In Byron´s Shadow Modern Greece in the English and American Imagination", by David Roessel, page 163.)

43. "This revival also allowed the Byzantines to re-colonize the Greek mainland. The success of that effort would prove crucial to the survival of Greek culture in future centuries, after the other lands had fallen away. Having overrun nearly all the Greek mainland, the cities, and the islands by the tenth century the Slavs in Greece have been converted to Orthodox Christianity and thoroughly Hellenized." ("Sailing from Byzantium How a Lost Empire Shaped the World", by Colin Wells, page 184.)

44. "The Vlachs, on the contrary, descendents of the Romanized people of the Balkan peninsula, live in considerable numbers in the mountains of northern and central Greece." ("The Scottish Geographical Magazine", volume XIII, 1897, page 370.)

45. "Europe´s affinity with ancient Greece left the newborn nation of Greece in an awkward double bind. Identifying ancient Greece as the ´childhood of Europe´ Winkelmann gave the patrimony of Greece to western Europe, leaving only more modern sights of heritage to the modern Greeks. Michael Herzfeld suggests that ´the west supported the Greeks on their implicit assumption that the Greeks would reciprocally accept the role of living ancestors of European civilization´." ("Possessors and Possessed", by Wendy M. K. Shaw, page 66.)

46. "It is simply not plausible to suggest that the bulk of Greek speaking Roman citizens in the Middle Ages, let alone the former Turkish subjects of 19th century Greece, ´lived like, ancient Greeks." ("Macedonia and Greece the Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation", by John Shea, page 95.)

47. "Not less remarkable than the small size of Hellas was the small size of the Hellenes themselves. But it is much more easy to trace the boundaries of the one upon the modern map than it is to trace the blood of the other in the bodies of the modern inhabitants.

We have no accurate record of the proportions of free citizens who alone constituted the true Hellenes, but they were at most a small minority among the large population of helots and slaves." ("The Nineteenth Century a Monthly Review", edited by James Knowles, Vol. VI, July-December 1879, page 932.)

48. "The Albanians of Hydra and Spatsae, many of whom could not even speak Greek, regarded themselves as Greek because their allegiance was with the Orthodox Church." ("That Greece Might Still be Free", by William St. Clair, page 9.)

49. "Here is the ultimate Greek tragedy: that of a country forced to treat everything familiar at the time of the nation-state´s foundation as ´foreign´ while importing a culture largely invented – or at least – redesigned by German classicists of the late eighteenth early nineteenth centuries. For many decades, and almost without interruption, Greeks were forced to put aside music, art and language that were deemed too tainted by the ´oriental´ influences of Ottoman, Arab, Slavic and Albanian culture; to forget the partially Albanian roots of Athens and its environs…" ("The Body Impolitic" by Michael Herzfeld, page 9.)

50. "The philhellenes – the word means ´the admirers of the Greeks´ – who began to lobby for Greek freedom were struck by the contrast between the idea of ancient Greek freedom and the servitude of the modern Greeks, who were usually assumed to be direct descendents of Pericles and company. Philhellenes generally moved at a distance from reality: they were concerned only with the myth of Athens and were capable of ignoring anything which tended to tarnish the glamour." ("Athens from Ancient Ideal to Modern City", by Robin Waterfield, page 296.)

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  AuLoNa on Tue May 12, 2009 4:49 pm

Great info Zeus, thank you.. Smile

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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

Post  ZEUS10 on Tue May 12, 2009 5:37 pm

AuLoNa wrote:Great info Zeus, thank you.. Smile


Jo vetem qe nuk jane greke, por zemra e Greqise se Lashte Attika, si dhe kryeqyteti i Greqise ishin shqiptare totalisht, para Revolucionit """Grek"".


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Re: Disa pyetje historike!

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