Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

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Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

Post  ZEUS10 on Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:24 am

Ancient Greek language is nothing more than an old Albanian. Any element of linguistics shows this truth. Phonetics, phonology, semantics, morphology anything shows we have to do with an Albanian construction.
Let's take a look to the word poet, poetry poesi etc:



the Greek word poethe in albanian literally means making speech; meaning: reciting.

the """Greek""" word poi is just the Albanian boj(bëj).
why b instead of p?
Because Albanian language has preserved the original voiced consonant (b) while the Ancient Greek appears a dialect of Albanian and uses the voiceless correspondent instead (p)

What is a voiceless consonant?
A consonant produced without sound from the vocal cords, which is been called surd(another Albanian word shurdh=deaf)
So we have to do with the same sound with a voicing contrast:



the second part te(the) is the Albanian word them(say) in its third person singular, past very common in Ancient Greek morphology.

This is the same word used in Athena's word structure, themis' one, thotis etc.



Last edited by ZEUS10 on Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

Post  Sykalter on Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:18 am

Poem:

The Greek word poiēma has been borrowed in many languages. Such a sophisticated term if it is shared by languages, is usually borrowed when it looks so much like.

These are all borrowing from Greek ultimately:
Albanian poemë
Catalan: poema
English: poem
French poème
Italian: poema
Maltese: poeżija
Polish: poezja
Spanish: poema


Greek poiēma ultimately can be traced back to PIE * kWoiw-eyo- meaning “to build, to make, to pile up”. Sanskrit shares this root in kayah.

PIE *kW- can yield either p, t, or k in Greek:
p- from *kW- is followed by a or o, or consonants. (*kWrep- becomes prapis in Greek)
t- when *kW- is followed by e or i. (for example kWe- yielding te, kWetwer- yielding tettares)
k- when *kW- is followed by a u.

Albanian b and Greek p:

Greek p will never correlate with Albanian b and here is why:

PIE *bh- yields b- in Albanian and ph- (later f) in Greek
PIE *b- yields b- in Albanian and b- in Greek (later v) (Note this PIE phoneme is in very few words)

Native Greek words with b- (now v-) come from PIE *gW- when followed by an a or o. So PIE gWou- becomes bous.
*gW- in Albanian on the other hand will yield: g, z, or gj.

In no sound law case will an Albanian b and a Greek p be cognates, ever. Greek and Albanian will share p- when the original PIE root is *p- such as *penkWe becomes pente in Greek and pesë in Albanian.

Albanian and Greek have very different sound laws from PIE and while both languages are related, neither descend from the other.

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Re: Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

Post  ZEUS10 on Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:47 am

Sykalter wrote: Poem:

The Greek word poiēma has been borrowed in many languages. Such a sophisticated term if it is shared by languages, is usually borrowed when it looks so much like.

These are all borrowing from Greek ultimately:
Albanian poemë
Catalan: poema
English: poem
French poème
Italian: poema
Maltese: poeżija
Polish: poezja
Spanish: poema

We don't know who borrowed from who, and how many of the above languages were back then in existence(beside Albanian)





Sykalter wrote:Albanian b and Greek p:

Greek p will never correlate with Albanian b and here is why:

PIE *bh- yields b- in Albanian and ph- (later f) in Greek
PIE *b- yields b- in Albanian and b- in Greek (later v) (Note this PIE phoneme is in very few words)

Native Greek words with b- (now v-) come from PIE *gW- when followed by an a or o. So PIE gWou- becomes bous.
*gW- in Albanian on the other hand will yield: g, z, or gj.

In no sound law case will an Albanian b and a Greek p be cognates, ever. Greek and Albanian will share p- when the original PIE root is *p- such as *penkWe becomes pente in Greek and pesë in Albanian.

Albanian and Greek have very different sound laws from PIE and while both languages are related, neither descend from the other.
The Albanian word boj is ultimatelly the poi(""greek"" word). We have other words for that baj(Elbasan, Tirana), bëj(south, Tosc), boj(gheg, North).
It means do, make smth, or make love etc.
If you are not convinced let me tell you another example:



It's easy, isnt it?
If you still think that the Ancient Greek is a distinct language different from Albanian, look at the second synonym: kôros. Do you know what it means in Albanian?
Penis.

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Re: Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

Post  Sykalter on Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:56 am

ZEUS10 wrote:

We don't know who borrowed from who, and how many of the above languages were back then in existence(beside Albanian)

If Greek borrowed the word from Illyrian (what I would call Proto-Albanian), then we would have to scrap the PIE root kWoiw-eyo-. In any event, if Greek loans Illyrian b, it won't be as a p. Albanian bëj/bën, to make, to appear descends from PIE bhā-, this root means to shine but also to appear.

ZEUS10 wrote: It's easy, isnt it?
If you still think that the Ancient Greek is a distinct language different from Albanian, look at the second synonym: kôros. Do you know what it means in Albanian?
Penis.

Albanian k-a-r and Greek koros could be cognates or a borrowing. Loanwords either way don't make two languages descend from the other. Albanian and Greek are two very distinct Indo-European languages as demonstrated by their sound changes of their known cognates.

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Re: Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

Post  ZEUS10 on Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:06 pm

Sykalter, I invite you to review these thesis:

1. Albanian derives from an Illyrian dialect, and only the Illyrians are the sole forefathers of the Albanians.
2. Ancient Greek is a distinct language (from Albanian) and it makes a seperate branch of the PIE language.
3. The only system valuable to get to a conclusion in the comparative linguistics is the give-borrow system betwen different branches(languages) of the same origin.


Last edited by ZEUS10 on Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

Post  Sykalter on Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:58 pm

ZEUS10 wrote:Sykalter, I invite you to review these thesis:

1. Albanian derives from an Illyrian dialect, and only the Illyrians are the sole forefathers of the Albanians.
2. Ancient Greek is a distinct language (from Albanian) and it makes a seperate branch of the PIE language.
3. The only system valuable to get to a conclusion in the comparative linguistics is the give-borrow system betwen different branches(languages) of the same origin.

1. Yes, Albanian derives from an Illyrian dialect. The Albanian Urheimat is firmly located in Illyria. As ancient Illyria was a vast territory, the Illyrians would have spoken varied dialects.

2. Albanian is distinct from Greek. They would have split off from each other at the very least around 4,000 years ago. They are separate branches of Indo-European today. Since they do share a common origin, there will be eventually a common origin of some kind. There is no consensus among linguists how exactly Indo-European branches into its branches today simply because all of these languages are closely related. While no branch today actually comes from another, they would share a common ancestor. I personally believe that present day Albania (and in ancient times the more expansive Illyria) was the Urheimat of Indo-European. You can think of it as Albanian being the only language which stayed in the homeland while everyone else moved out. The following is my personal tree of Indo-European:

Indo-European
I. Illyrian (Albanian, stayed in the original homeland)
II. Anatolian (first group to leave the Balkans and cross into Anatolia)
III. Eastern movement: Illyrian blends into Thracian and Dacian, Dacian blends into Cimmerian which blends into Aryan (Indo-Iranian)
IV. Western movement: An early group moves west and then east, Tocharian, another group moves out early into Italy becoming Messapic, Illyrians blends into Celtic on the NW, blends into Venetic then Italic.
V. Northern movement: The Germanic, Baltic, and Slavic groups developed from an early migration North of people from the Balkans
VI. Southern movement: Illyrian blends into Macedonian, which in turn blends into Greek, Greek blending into Phrygian going east, Phrygian becomes Armenian

Albanian is the only IE language I know which has been connected to Eastern, Western, Northern, and Southern, IE languages. It really defies being forced into any one group. It has unique sound changes which defy such a forced classification.

So instead of branches and subgroups, I really prefer to look at Indo-European as a wheel with Albanian being the center, while the other Indo-European languages being spokes on that wheel. It isn't accurate then to say Greek or German comes from Albanian per se, but all three come from the Proto-language, a proto-language which in my opinion was spoken in today's Albania. From the center to spokes, every IE group has changed though. Illyrian would look different from modern Albanian just as Ancient Greek looks different from modern Greek.

3. It is often difficult to tell a loan from an inherited word with related languages. Linguists try to come up with regular sound correspondences. For Albanian, often linguists try to claim that a word is a Latin or Greek loan, when Illyrian interdialect borrowing is a much better explanation. Although, often some words are obvious loans, especially when they are learned words or highly specific technical terms. These words in Albanian are obvious due to many of the same words appearing in English. Rarely do actual cognates look identical, often they don't. If you find a pattern in sound correspondence then they become more apparent.

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Re: Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

Post  ZEUS10 on Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:34 am

Sykalter wrote:

Albanian b and Greek p:

Greek p will never correlate with Albanian b and here is why:

PIE *bh- yields b- in Albanian and ph- (later f) in Greek
PIE *b- yields b- in Albanian and b- in Greek (later v) (Note this PIE phoneme is in very few words)

Native Greek words with b- (now v-) come from PIE *gW- when followed by an a or o. So PIE gWou- becomes bous.
*gW- in Albanian on the other hand will yield: g, z, or gj.

In no sound law case will an Albanian b and a Greek p be cognates, ever. Greek and Albanian will share p- when the original PIE root is *p- such as *penkWe becomes pente in Greek and pesë in Albanian.

Albanian and Greek have very different sound laws from PIE and while both languages are related, neither descend from the other.

Sykalter, the sound system of the ancient """"Greek"""" is different from the already established sounds in the modern languages. The bilabial group elements(stops and fricatives) often tend to switch to each-other. Thats why we dont have fixed phonemes in different descended words.


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Re: Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

Post  Sykalter on Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:48 pm

ZEUS10 wrote:

Sykalter, the sound system of the ancient """"Greek"""" is different from the already established sounds in the modern languages. The bilabial group elements(stops and fricatives) often tend to switch to each-other. Thats why we dont have fixed phonemes in different descended words.


The most significant sound changes of Ancient Greek to Modern Greek are in the aspirated voiceless stops and the voiced stops:

Ancient Greek [ph]/[th]/[kh] become [f]/[θ]/[x] while [b]/[d]/[g] become [v]/[ð]/[γ].

There is a clear pattern from how the Ancient Greek aspirated voiceless stops and voiced stops descend from Proto-Indo-European.

Ancient Greek [ph] descends from Proto-Indo-European *bh and *gWh (+a, +o, +C). Ancient Greek [th] descends from PIE *dh and gWh (+i, +e). Ancient Greek [kh] descends from PIE *g'h, *gh and *gWh (+u). Ancient Greek [b] descends from PIE *b and *gW (+a, +o, +C). Ancient Greek [d] descends from PIE *d and *gW (+i, +e). Ancient Greek [g] descends from PIE *g', *g', and gW (+u).

Albanian has had very different sound changes.

Proto-Indo-European *bh becomes b in Albanian. PIE *dh becomes d. PIE *g'h becomes dh, d (+r, +l), z. PIE *gh becomes g. PIE *ghW becomes g, z (+i, +e), gj (+front vowels post-PIE). PIE *b becomes b in Albanian. PIE *d becomes become d or dh (between vowels). PIE *g' becomes dh or g (+l, +r). PIE *g becomes g. PIE *gW becomes g, z (+i, +e), gj (+front vowels post-PIE).

What makes Albanian rather conservative and despite these sound changes, Albanian preserves a three-way distinction of the PIE palatals/velars/labialized velars before front vowels. These sound changes happened relatively late perhaps only 1,500 years ago. This is evident by Albanian Durrës from earlier Durrachion.

As the earlier Proto-Indo-European *g' comes from velar *g, *g comes from uvular *G, and *gW from *gW. Perhaps Albanian kept this old distinction of a velar and uvular and then in the early Middle Ages, the velar went forward (various positions) while the uvular become a velar. Albanian does also preserve the laryngeal *h4.

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Re: Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

Post  ZEUS10 on Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:54 pm

Sykalter wrote:
ZEUS10 wrote:

Sykalter, the sound system of the ancient """"Greek"""" is different from the already established sounds in the modern languages. The bilabial group elements(stops and fricatives) often tend to switch to each-other. Thats why we dont have fixed phonemes in different descended words.


The most significant sound changes of Ancient Greek to Modern Greek are in the aspirated voiceless stops and the voiced stops:

Ancient Greek [ph]/[th]/[kh] become [f]/[θ]/[x] while [b]/[d]/[g] become [v]/[ð]/[γ].

There is a clear pattern from how the Ancient Greek aspirated voiceless stops and voiced stops descend from Proto-Indo-European.

Ancient Greek [ph] descends from Proto-Indo-European *bh and *gWh (+a, +o, +C). Ancient Greek [th] descends from PIE *dh and gWh (+i, +e). Ancient Greek [kh] descends from PIE *g'h, *gh and *gWh (+u). Ancient Greek [b] descends from PIE *b and *gW (+a, +o, +C). Ancient Greek [d] descends from PIE *d and *gW (+i, +e). Ancient Greek [g] descends from PIE *g', *g', and gW (+u).

Albanian has had very different sound changes.

Proto-Indo-European *bh becomes b in Albanian. PIE *dh becomes d. PIE *g'h becomes dh, d (+r, +l), z. PIE *gh becomes g. PIE *ghW becomes g, z (+i, +e), gj (+front vowels post-PIE). PIE *b becomes b in Albanian. PIE *d becomes become d or dh (between vowels). PIE *g' becomes dh or g (+l, +r). PIE *g becomes g. PIE *gW becomes g, z (+i, +e), gj (+front vowels post-PIE).

What makes Albanian rather conservative and despite these sound changes, Albanian preserves a three-way distinction of the PIE palatals/velars/labialized velars before front vowels. These sound changes happened relatively late perhaps only 1,500 years ago. This is evident by Albanian Durrës from earlier Durrachion.

As the earlier Proto-Indo-European *g' comes from velar *g, *g comes from uvular *G, and *gW from *gW. Perhaps Albanian kept this old distinction of a velar and uvular and then in the early Middle Ages, the velar went forward (various positions) while the uvular become a velar. Albanian does also preserve the laryngeal *h4.

Your answer has nothing to do with my quote. I was talking only about bilabials(p, b, ph, bh) conversion. It's been already proven that Ancient Greek was using (at least in writting) p instead of b and ph instead bh, for example the Illyrian Brygrians were written Phrygrians (and probably pronounced so) in Greek, the Macedonian Bhilip, was Philip written in Greek. But we have absolutely no clue, how did those words are pronounced in Illyrian, Greek and Macedonian. I think we have to do only with a dialectal fluctuation.


Last edited by ZEUS10 on Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:57 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

Post  Sykalter on Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:48 pm

ZEUS10 wrote:Your answer has nothing to do with my quote. I was talking only about bilabials(p, b, ph, bh) conversion. It's been already proven that Ancient Greek was using (at least in writing) p instead of b and ph instead bh, for example the Illyrian Brygrians were written Phrygrians (and probably pronounced so) in Greek, the Macedonian Bhilip was Philip written in Greek. But we have absolutely no clue how did those words are pronounced in Illyrian, Greek and Macedonian. I think we have to do only with a dialectal fluctuation.

Well, in a way yes it is a dialectal fluctuation as Albanian, Greek, Phrygian, Macedonian, and Armenian are all Indo-European. The problem is that our knowledge of Illyrian, Dacian, Thracian, Macedonian, and Phrygian is very scare and determining the precise relationship between all of these languages is never really going to be possible. We also do not know the precise phonetic quality of some of these extinct languages and if the words or names transcribed by others is fully accurate. Also, we can't say for certain that there was ever really one Illyrian or one Dacian language. Perhaps these areas had many languages spoken in them.

We know with more certainty the pronunciation and history of the sound changes of Greek because Greek is attested early and there is a large number of texts. The other ancient languages are not attested in any great amount often not by native speakers. We know when Greek had its sound changes for p/b/bh, but not for Albanian. Perhaps Old Albanian (Illyrian) distinguished between b and bh but much later they merged? We have no way of knowing when this merger happened with the present evidence.

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Re: Poetry, poem, poesi etc words comparision

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