The Pelasgian Dialects

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The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  AuLoNa on Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:58 pm





Map showing the dialects in Ancient Greece

In the Classical times there were still some survivors of pre-Greek languages in isolated places: Etocreatan in Crete, Lemnian spoken by the native people of Lemnos and in Cypros the Etecypriot of Amathous. The Doric dialect with tis board as was spoken where it was said that Dorian invaders had taken over. Non-Dorian in this areas, even if conscious being racially distinct, spoke Doric too. The Thessalian and Baeotian invaders brought their Aeolic dialect with them. On the mainland the Athenians, never vanquished, retained Attic, their dialect of Ionic whose literary prestige eventually conquered the whole Greece-speaking world. The koine of Hellenistic times was a popularized version of Attic. In western Asia Minor the stylized language of epic poetry was evolved, never a medium of ordinary speech. What people did speak was Aeolic in the North, which the poets of Lesbos used for their songs, and Ionic in Samos, Chios and the coastal Ionian cities.. This was the language of the first prose writers. The physicians of the Hippokratic school at Kos and the historian Herodotos of Halikarnassos wrote Ionic, although they were Dorians. Mainland northwest dialects are known from inscriptions but not from literature. In Arcadia an archaic dialect survived with striking affinities to the kind of Greek the first settlers had taken to Cypros, c. 1200, and continued to write well into Classical times in their ancient syllabic script. In the Pindos mountains there were people speaking a language unintelligible to the Greeks.

This citation was taken from "Atlas Of The Greek World" by Peter Levi, pg 21.

I was reading this book and stopped at the dialects of ancient times and thought to start a topic, so the rest of you guys who know more about linguistics and dialects can explain better and give us more detailed insight about this vast topic.


Last edited by AuLoNa on Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  Sykalter on Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:33 am

That is an excellent map. I will have to save that one.

The ancient Greek dialects were quite varied. I found some interesting phonological differences.

Compare the word for four:
Mycenaean: qetoro
Attic: tettares
Thessalian: pettares
Lesbian: pessures
West Greek: tetores

Mycenaean Greek is the oldest attested form of Greek and it shows as PIE four is *kWetwer-. What this shows is that interesting sound changes can occur even in one sub-branch. Similar examples can be found in Italic and Celtic languages.

What the map also shows is that the greatest linguistic diversity of Ancient Greek is southern Greece which would point this area as probably the Urheimat of Greek or at least where Proto-Greeks settled after splitting from Armenian and Phrygian as these two languages are likely Greek's closest relatives.

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  alfeko sukaraku on Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:46 pm

une munde te ndihmoj ne kete fushe --ju kuptoj ne perqindje te madhe ne anglisht,por nuk e shkruaj dote si ju anglishten.

qe te flasim per "Greket" na duhet ne radhe te pare te sqarojm se cilet jane Greket.Ata nuk ekzistojn askundi si kombe --kemi te dhena se vijne nga Fthia e ushtarve te Aqillit.

Persa i perket numrit 4 Mikenas ne radhe te pare nuk jemi te sigurt ne se fjala qe-te-ro-we nenkupton numrin 4 ne ato kohe te pakten.Sic e dini para shek 5 p e s asgje nuk eshte e sigurte per fjalet aritmetike.

Perkthim-Translation ^^^

I can help in this area - I understand the large percentage in English, but I do not write English like you.

To talk about "Greeks" we need first to clarify that whom are not Greek. They do not exist nowhere as nations -- we have data from that Fthia of Achilles soldiers.

With regard to number 4 in the first Mycenaean we are not sure if that word qe-te-ro-we means the number 4 at that time at least. As you know before the 5th century nothing is for sure for the term arithmetic.

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  ZEUS10 on Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:35 pm

Sykalter wrote:Compare the word for four:
Mycenaean: qetoro
Attic: tettares
Thessalian: pettares
Lesbian: pessures
West Greek: tetores

Mycenaean Greek is the oldest attested form of Greek and it shows as PIE four is *kWetwer-.


alfeko sukaraku wrote:une munde te ndihmoj ne kete fushe --ju kuptoj ne perqindje te madhe ne anglisht,por nuk e shkruaj dote si ju anglishten.

qe te flasim per "Greket" na duhet ne radhe te pare te sqarojm se cilet jane Greket.Ata nuk ekzistojn askundi si kombe --kemi te dhena se vijne nga Fthia e ushtarve te Aqillit.

Persa i perket numrit 4 Mikenas ne radhe te pare nuk jemi te sigurt ne se fjala qe-te-ro-we nenkupton numrin 4 ne ato kohe te pakten.Sic e dini para shek 5 p e s asgje nuk eshte e sigurte per fjalet aritmetike.

Perkthim-Translation ^^^

I can help in this area - I understand the large percentage in English, but I do not write English like you.

To talk about "Greeks" we need first to clarify that whom are not Greek. They do not exist nowhere as nations -- we have data from that Fthia of Achilles soldiers.

With regard to number 4 in the first Mycenaean we are not sure if that word qe-te-ro-we means the number 4 at that time at least. As you know before the 5th century nothing is for sure for the term arithmetic.

You're right Alfeko, we have O indications that Mycenaean qe-te-ro-we means number 4(four), if it's deciphered correctly, starting with. We don't know nothing at all what language Mycenaean was, because Mr.Chadwick didn't follow any scientific approach toward the Greek language, on the supposed correctly transcripted Mycanaean words(made by Ventris). All he did picking up randomly words from A.Greek & mostly names, graphically similar to the already transcripted Mycaneaen words. If we follow this track we easily could claim Mycenaean language as Italian, German, Scandivinian or even Chinese. Let me give you an example. The following table is being created using the same methodology Chadwick used to claim Mycaneaen as Greek; not supposed Greek words but Albanian ones is been employed instead:



I am not saying Mycenaean is Albanian, but Albanian words work out much better than the Greek ones, when you make the translation transition. As for the Mycenaean*kWetwer, the Albanian kater is much closer than the Greek tettares, or tetores not speaking about Thessalian: pettares or Lesbian: pessures which might be the Albanian 5(pese).


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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  ZEUS10 on Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:37 pm

AuLoNa wrote:

Map showing the dialects in Ancient Greece

In the Classical times there were still some survivors of pre-Greek languages in isolated places: Etocreatan in Crete, Lemnian spoken by the native people of Lemnos and in Cypros the Etecypriot of Amathous. The Doric dialect with tis board as was spoken where it was said that Dorian invaders had taken over. Non-Dorian in this areas, even if conscious being racially distinct, spoke Doric too. The Thessalian and Baeotian invaders brought their Aeolic dialect with them. On the mainland the Athenians, never vanquished, retained Attic, their dialect of Ionic whose literary prestige eventually conquered the whole Greece-speaking world. The koine of Hellenistic times was a popularized version of Attic. In western Asia Minor the stylized language of epic poetry was evolved, never a medium of ordinary speech. What people did speak was Aeolic in the North, which the poets of Lesbos used for their songs, and Ionic in Samos, Chios and the coastal Ionian cities.. This was the language of the first prose writers. The physicians of the Hippokratic school at Kos and the historian Herodotos of Halikarnassos wrote Ionic, although they were Dorians. Mainland northwest dialects are known from inscriptions but not from literature. In Arcadia an archaic dialect survived with striking affinities to the kind of Greek the first settlers had taken to Cypros, c. 1200, and continued to write well into Classical times in their ancient syllabic script. In the Pindos mountains there were people speaking a language unintelligible to the Greeks.

This citation was taken from "Atlas Of The Greek World" by Peter Levi, pg 21.

I was reading this book and stopped at the dialects of ancient times and thought to start a topic, so the rest of you guys who know more about linguistics and dialects can explain better and give us more detailed insight about this vast topic.

Aulona I would rather use: "Pelasgian dialects" term, instead of "Ancient Greek dialects"


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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  alfeko sukaraku on Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:36 pm

kam degjuar se se shpejti botohet edhe nje liber me disa mbishkrime te Linear B te shpjeguara me ane te gjuhes shqipe.
Eshte per tu permendur fakti qe emrat homerian kane nje ndertim te tille i cili i gjane shume fjaleve te linear b te lexuara sipas deshifrimit te alfabetit rrokor nga Michael Ventri(amatore) p sh,emrat homerian kane nje ndertim etimolog te perbere nga dy a me shume fjale qe jane shume prane gjuhes shqipe.p sh

Menelau=mene lau=mendej la,mendje leni. Kujtojm se ne te foluren joletrare shqipe perdoret shpesh "men,mene=mendje"
Idomene= i do mene=i do mendja
Hektora=hek dora=ai qe ta heq=ai qe te qellon.
Tandali=ta ndali etje

po me kete llogjike lere te vrejm fjalet shqipe nelinear b.

i-je-re-ja=yje reja=hyjeria.
wa-na-se-wi-ja=vana se vija
ko-ro-no-we-sa=kuron vesha=kuror veshura
a-mo-te-wi-ja=nga mote vija


por kjo nuk do te thote se te gjitha fjalet jane te perbera=etimologe,pasi ka fjale te tilla si :

ku-na-ja=kunaje=kunadheja--etje

lere te sqarojm nje thenie"gjuremfsheherse" greke e cila lidhet me fjalen "metafrasi=perkthimi".Kjo fjale perdoret me mjeshteri per te treguar perkthimin nga "greqishtja" e vjeter ne greqishten e re duke e quajtur normale perkthimin edhe jo shpjegimin.Zotrinj: eshte tjeter gje "metafrasi" edhe tjeter gje "erminia=shpjegimi".Metafrasi tregon perkthimin nga nje gjuhe e panjohur,ndersa shpjegimi tregon vazhdimsin e se njejtes gjuhe,ndaj drejtkuptoheni fjalen "metafrasi" pasi ajo perdoret shpesh si per te treguar shpjegimin.

I heard that soon will be published a book with some epigraphy to the linear B described by Albanian language.

It is to mention the fact that names Homerian have a construction such that parallel many words to read linear B to readable according legibility to alphabet Rrokor by Michael Ventri (amateur). For example, names Homerian etymologist have a structure consisting of two or more words that are very close to Albanian language, eg.

Menelau=mene lau=mendej la,mendje leni. Remember that in the non-literature spoken Albanian language often is used "men,mene=mendje"
Idomene= i do mene=i do mendja
Hektora=hek dora=ai qe ta heq=ai qe te qellon.
Tandali=ta ndali etje

With this logic lets look at the Albanian words in linear B.

i-je-re-ja=yje reja=hyjeria.
wa-na-se-wi-ja=vana se vija
ko-ro-no-we-sa=kuron vesha=kuror veshura
a-mo-te-wi-ja=nga mote vija

Lets clarify a statement "gjuremfsheherse" greek, which relates to word "metafrasi = Translate." This word is used with skill to show translation from the old "Greek" into the new Greek translation, calling it normal translation and not. Gentlemen: is another thing "metafrasi" and another which "erminia = explanation. Metafrasi indicates translation from a language of unknown, and the explanation shows continuation of the same language, so to understand the word" metafrasi " after that is often used to show an explanation.

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  Sykalter on Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:05 pm

Perhaps since English is not everyone's first language. I have to clarify some terms for you. In a linguistic sense for English, Greek means all of those ancient and modern dialects which descend from Proto-Greek. All Greek dialects past and present are more closely related to each other than to any other languages of the world. There is absolutely no debate in this in linguistics. Mycenaean is the oldest attested form of Greek.

You can replace the term "Greek" with "Fish Face" or "Kittens", it doesn't change the fact that Mycenaean, Aeolic, Ionic, Attic, West Greek, Tsakonian, Katharevousa, Demotic, Koine, Arcadian, Cypriotic, etc. are all more closely related to each other than to any other languages in the world.

Also, I can't stress enough that since Albanian and Greek are both Indo-European languages, I would hope there would be a lot of similarities and cognates. Also, since Mycenaean is the oldest attested form for Greek, it's words are going to go through less innovations and therefore its forms will be more similar to the forms of other IE languages.

The Proto-Indo-European root is *kWetwer-. Modern Greek four is tesseris and has quite a few sound changes from the proto-form. While the oldest attested form for four is in Mycenaean Greek: qetoro (kWetoro). Albanian katër and Lithuanian keturi are more conservative in form so therefore they look more like Mycenaean Greek. This doesn't mean Lithuanian and Albanian are closer to Mycenaean Greek, this means that Greek has gone through many sound changes from Mycenaean to modern Greek. On the other hand Modern Greek ennea and Mycenaean enewo show that Greek has not changed that form as much.

The Lemnian language is closely related to Etruscan while the language of the Minoans (Linear A) has never been deciphered.

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  ZEUS10 on Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:29 pm

Sykalter wrote:Perhaps since English is not everyone's first language. I have to clarify some terms for you. In a linguistic sense for English, Greek means all of those ancient and modern dialects which descend from Proto-Greek. All Greek dialects past and present are more closely related to each other than to any other languages of the world. There is absolutely no debate in this in linguistics.

Thats for sure, but the question is : did the the Modern Greek come to us through the family hearth or in other ways?

Sykalter wrote: Mycenaean is the oldest attested form of Greek.

It doesnt look Greek to me:



I could pretend this is Japanese, the same way Ventris and Chadwick pretend this to be Greek.

Sykalter wrote: You can replace the term "Greek" with "Fish Face" or "Kittens", it doesn't change the fact that Mycenaean, Aeolic, Ionic, Attic, West Greek, Tsakonian, Katharevousa, Demotic, Koine, Arcadian, Cypriotic, etc. are all more closely related to each other than to any other languages in the world.
Mycenaean :unknown , undeciphered
Aeolic:Pelasgic
Attic:Pelasgic
Ionic: the same
West Greek: some modern trash nonsense
Tsakonian: not a Greek language, but heavily influented
Katharevousa: semi-artificial copy of Attic, mixed up with thousands of newly coined words
Demotic: language used by a great network of byzantine merchants, derived from Koine
Koine: semi-artificial language, created for trade and liturgic purpose, church language.
Arcadian:Pelasgic
Cypriotic: the same

What is common on the aboves? Not Greek not related to the Greeks. Greek is some invented identity.


Sykalter wrote: Also, I can't stress enough that since Albanian and Greek are both Indo-European languages, I would hope there would be a lot of similarities and cognates. Also, since Mycenaean is the oldest attested form for Greek, it's words are going to go through less innovations and therefore its forms will be more similar to the forms of other IE languages.


That doesnt make sense at all. If Mycenaean is an old form of Greek our expectation is that the Greek must show more similarity to it, but the modern linguist are exerting to make an exhausted connection to the Greek which is very weak in reality ( bring examples and let disscuss for each of them)

Sykalter wrote: The Proto-Indo-European root is *kWetwer-. Modern Greek four is tesseris and has quite a few sound changes from the proto-form. While the oldest attested form for four is in Mycenaean Greek: qetoro (kWetoro).


Tesseris differ radically from qetoro (kWetoro). There is no way to be descended from it.

Sykalter wrote: Albanian katër and Lithuanian keturi are more conservative in form so therefore they look more like Mycenaean Greek. This doesn't mean Lithuanian and Albanian are closer to Mycenaean Greek, this means that Greek has gone through many sound changes from Mycenaean to modern Greek. On the other hand Modern Greek ennea and Mycenaean enewo show that Greek has not changed that form as much.


I have to say that Albanian is not showing that huge similarity to old forms due to its conservative character but because Albanian is the most natural language in Europe, and follows natural tracks of language evolution. Being so it shows more faithfully that any other language the "face" of the old PIE language, not saing it's the PIE itself.


Sykalter wrote:The Lemnian language is closely related to Etruscan while the language of the Minoans (Linear A) has never been deciphered.


Linear B has never been deciphered too. Ventris and Chadwick have never showed us how did they deciphere it, and why the translated words is exactly the ones they pretend to be. Like I said Mycenaean could be Greek, but they haven't proved nothing with this trash:


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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  Sykalter on Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:03 pm

ZEUS10 wrote:

Thats for sure, but the question is : did the the Modern Greek come to us through the family hearth or in other ways?

Modern Greek (the form which is used in education) is a mostly artificial construct like any standard language. Standard languages are the language from nowhere. The same applies to standard Hindi or standard English. One really needs to study the non-standard Greek dialects such as Tsakonian, Pontic, Cappadocian, to get a better feel of the dialects. Tsakonian is the only non-Attic dialect left today. Due to WWI, much of the diversity of Greek dialects was damaged due to the ethnic cleansing of Greek speakers in Asia Minor.

ZEUS10 wrote:It doesnt look Greek to me:



I could pretend this is Japanese, the same way Ventris and Chadwick pretend this to be Greek.

Of course it doesn't look like the modern Greek alphabet! The Greek alphabet was adapted from Phoenician which is around 500 years after Linear B was used for Mycenaean. Related languages can use different writing systems. One language can use a different script in its history. Persian has been written in cuneiform (originally used for Sumerian), Pahlavi (Aramaic based script), and now in Arabic script. That is one language written in three different scripts in its history. Do not confuse writing systems with language.

ZEUS10 wrote:
Mycanean :unknown , undeciphered
Aeolic:Pelasgic
Attic:Pelasgic
Ionic: the same
West Greek: some modern trash nonsense
Tsakonian: not a Greek language, but heavily influented
Katharevousa: semi-artificial copy of Attic, mixed up with thousands newly coined words
Demotic: language used by a great network of byzantine merchant, derived from Koine
Koine: semi-artificial language, created for trade and liturgic porpuose.
Arcadian:Pelasgic
Cypriotic: the same

What is common on the aboves? Not Greek not related to the Greeks. Greek is some invented identity.
You are just 100% wrong here. Find me one academic source. You won't be able to.

ZEUS10 wrote:Tesseris differ radically from qetoro (kWetoro). There is no way to be descended from it.


Of course it can:

PIE kWel- yields Greek telos
PIE kWetwer- yields Greek tessares
PIE kWe- yields Greek te
PIE kWei- yields Greek tēros

Guess what sound changes can make radical changes. Armenian yerek' comes from PIE *trei-. I can't say more you have to read through academic sources to get good information.


ZEUS10 wrote:Linear B has never been deciphered too. Ventris and Chadwick never showed us how did they deciphere it and why the translated words is exactly the ones they pretend to be. Like I said Mycenaean could be Greek but they havent proved nothing with this trash:


Give me on academic souce which says Mycenaean is not Greek. For this discussion the burden is on you to provide for me an academic source which claims Mycenaean is not Greek. The burden is not on me to demonstrate that Mycenaean is Greek.

Again, if you want to have a more meaningful discussion on linguistics, we need to discuss things which ARE in debate. Such as what language did the Minoans speak? Is Etruscan related to Indo-European? My question is NOT is Etrsucan Indo-European, it is is it related to. There is a huge difference in linguistics between IS and RELATED TO.

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  ZEUS10 on Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:49 pm

Sykalter wrote:
Modern Greek (the form which is used in education) is a mostly artificial construct like any standard language. Standard languages are the language from nowhere. The same applies to standard Hindi or standard English. One really needs to study the non-standard Greek dialects such as Tsakonian, Pontic, Cappadocian, to get a better feel of the dialects. Tsakonian is the only non-Attic dialect left today. Due to WWI, much of the diversity of Greek dialects was damaged due to the ethnic cleansing of Greek speakers in Asia Minor.

This is not valid for Albanian. The standard Albanian, doesn't differ that much from the dialect it has been processed from., and I assure you that this dialect I am talking about comes from the long antiquity spoken language IN FAMILY HEARTH. The Greek DOES NOT. It has a huge gap interruption.

Sykalter wrote:Of course it doesn't look like the modern Greek alphabet! The Greek alphabet was adapted from Phoenician which is around 500 years after Linear B was used for Mycenaean. Related languages can use different writing systems. One language can use a different script in its history. Persian has been written in cuneiform (originally used for Sumerian), Pahlavi (Aramaic based script), and now in Arabic script. That is one language written in three different scripts in its history. Do not confuse writing systems with language.

I know that and much better than that. The problem is elsewhere, the decipherement, transliteration, transcription and translation made from the couple Ventris-Chadwick lacks the transparence and scientific argument.

ZEUS10 wrote:
Mycanean :unknown , undeciphered
Aeolic:Pelasgic
Attic:Pelasgic
Ionic: the same
West Greek: some modern trash nonsense
Tsakonian: not a Greek language, but heavily influented
Katharevousa: semi-artificial copy of Attic, mixed up with thousands newly coined words
Demotic: language used by a great network of byzantine merchant, derived from Koine
Koine: semi-artificial language, created for trade and liturgic porpuose.
Arcadian:Pelasgic
Cypriotic: the same

What is common on the aboves? Not Greek not related to the Greeks. Greek is some invented identity.

Sykalter wrote: You are just 100% wrong here. Find me one academic source. You won't be able to..

Prove me wrong on each one of them.... if you can.


Sykalter wrote: Of course it can:

PIE kWel- yields Greek telos
PIE kWetwer- yields Greek tessares
PIE kWe- yields Greek te
PIE kWei- yields Greek tēros

Guess what sound changes can make radical changes. Armenian yerek' comes from PIE *trei-. I can't say more you have to read through academic sources to get good information.


I know your opinion about the yields but I assure you that there is no way that: kwel yields telos. This senseless arrogance from the modern linguists is the reason why the linguistics is the most nonrealistic science among philological ones.



Sykalter wrote:Give me on academic souce which says Mycenaean is not Greek. For this discussion the burden is on you to provide for me an academic source which claims Mycenaean is not Greek. The burden is not on me to demonstrate that Mycenaean is Greek.
Again, if you want to have a more meaningful discussion on linguistics, we need to discuss things which ARE in debate. Such as what language did the Minoans speak? Is Etruscan related to Indo-European? My question is NOT is Etrsucan Indo-European, it is is it related to. There is a huge difference in linguistics between IS and RELATED TO.

Arthur Evans, Arthur James Beatttie(who was the teacher of Chadwick) and a large group of linguists mentioned here:


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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  Sykalter on Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:06 am

ZEUS10 wrote:

This is not valid for Albanian. The standard Albanian, doesn't differ that much from the dialect it has been processed from., and I assure you that this dialect I am talking about comes from the long antiquity spoken language IN FAMILY HEARTH. The Greek DOES NOT. It has a huge gap interruption.
Standard Albanian may not differ much from whichever dialect/s on which it was based, but it still does a little. When anything is "Standard" it will differ, sometimes A LOT and sometimes a little.

All Indo-European languages spoken today can trade their ancestry to a common source which is between 5,000-6,000 years old or so. Most natural human languages did not come into existence ex nihilo. For example, French, Spanish, Romanian, Friulian all descend from Latin. Latin descends from Proto-Indo-European. Due to the lack of data, we can't go back any past PIE.

Greek dialects differ a lot in phonology from the standard language. I know because I have read about Greek dialects.


ZEUS10 wrote:Prove me wrong on each one of them.... if you can.

The burden is on you not me. I assure you 100% that Academia is on my side. Show me one Academic source that says Aeolic, Ionic, Attic, etc. are not Greek. You won't find any.




ZEUS10 wrote:I know your opinion about the yields but I assure you that there is no way that: kwel yields telos. This senseless arrogance from the modern linguists is the reason why the linguistics is the most nonrealistic science among philological ones.

This is not "my" opinion. This is the academic field of linguistics. You should read some academic books on historical linguistics before you make statements which do not add anything to your argument. You can study hundreds of language families and see how there are sound changes. Today in Brazilian Portuguese initial r- is becoming "kh" so Rio is becoming Khio. Seemingly strange sound changes are occurring even today. Many English dialects prononuce "th" as "f" or even "d" and "v".


ZEUS10 wrote:Arthur Evans, Arthur James Beatttie(who was the teacher of Chadwick) and a large group of linguists mentioned here:

Good good, here is a start of a real argument. We have Beattie, now what did Beattie say. He was a critic, are there more? What was his criticism. Have linguists or other specialists in related fields agreed with Beattie? Notice is says Beattie became controversial because he opposed the decipherment. Doesn't this tell you something about Beattie's views? It also states that the decipherment of Mycenaean as Greek has prevailed.

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  sulioti on Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:42 am

Ne shtepi ne shqiperi kam nje liber te nje autori grek modern ku shpjegon te dy linearet A dhe B, se jan gjuh pellazge,dhe i deshifron ato me an te shqipes, se nuk ka gjuhe tjeter ti deshifroj ato.Per fat te keq se kam ketu ku jam tani, po mbaj mend per shpjegimin qe i bente ky autori grek modern, numrave pellazg, ai thoshte keshtu;

pellazg( na) grek(ena) shqip(nje)ose nja duke marre parasysh dialektin geg, eshte (ni), qe do te thote se (a) ka evoluar ne (i) deri me sot.

pellazg(da)grek(dhio) shqip(dy)po diku me duket se arvanitet dyshit i thojn (di)pra dhe ketu e njejta gje (a) shendrohet ne (i).

tani po jap ca deshifrime te bera me hamendjen time ne lidhje me gjuhen greke dhe emertime te ndryshme ne greqin e sotme,dhe ate te lashten tonen.

homer=ho+mer=hi marri=i marri peng,grekt e perdorin dhe sot omiros=pengu
hakhil=hak+hil=morri (hak)vrau ektorin,dhe kishte (hile)se vritesh vetem ne thember.
hektor=hek+tor=i hoqi te te tor, pra i i heku te tor, kundershtaret, ose mundet gjithashtu te lidhet m(terHEKjen zvarre jashte kalas qe i beri hakili)dmth terHEK te TORin.
paris=peri+ish=i bukur ishte pra;peri ish
kasandra=qes +andra=tregoj andra
troja=te+rroja, atje ku rroj, kue eshte trualli im.
odhise=udh+ishe,pra ai qe udhetoi gjate per te arritur ne ishullin e itakes.
itaka=i+tha+ka=e thara ose e thena e degjuara.
traka=tra+ka dmth ka drure per tra, ose troka,qe gjyshja ime perdor, qe do te thote perdhe,dhe traka eshte njekohesisht shum poshte, flas per fushat qe jan posht.
kavala=ka+val,se vete ky qytet eshte ne breg te dettit pra aty ka val
limani=lem+anije,vnedi ku lem anijet
limnos=deformimi i emertimit liman
mitilini=mit+i+len, pra mit i len etj etj etj kaq per sot po pres nje here reagimin tuaj, se mos ndoshta ka ndonje shpjegim tjeter, por vete jam i sigurt per nje gje te gjitha keto deshifrohen dhe japin kuptimin e tyre ne gjuhen ton te dashur.

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  ZEUS10 on Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:57 am

Sykalter wrote:
Standard Albanian may not differ much from whichever dialect/s on which it was based, but it still does a little. When anything is "Standard" it will differ, sometimes A LOT and sometimes a little.
All Indo-European languages spoken today can trade their ancestry to a common source which is between 5,000-6,000 years old or so. Most natural human languages did not come into existence ex nihilo. For example, French, Spanish, Romanian, Friulian all descend from Latin. Latin descends from Proto-Indo-European. Due to the lack of data, we can't go back any past PIE.

That makes the difference betwen natural and semiartificial languages (like the Greek). Yes the IE languages didnt come to the existence ex nihilo, a language similar to Albanian today was the originative point.

Sykalter wrote:
Greek dialects differ a lot in phonology from the standard language. I know because I have read about Greek dialects
.

If you read about Greek I can easily understand Greek , I can translate simple texts from Ancient Greek, I know a considerable vocabulary in this language, and most of all I know very well its grammar. Sometime I can even read it with the rules established from the linguists.

Sykalter wrote:
The burden is on you not me. I assure you 100% that Academia is on my side. Show me one Academic source that says Aeolic, Ionic, Attic, etc. are not Greek. You won't find any.

I can bring you the main source: ancient writers who clearly say that Aeolians, Ionians &/or Athenians are PELASGIANS:

Herodotus, Polymnia Book 7

a. The Ionians furnished a hundred ships, and were armed like the Greeks. Now these Ionians, during the time that they dwelt in the Peloponnese and inhabited the land now called Achaea (which wasbefore the arrival of Danaus and Xuthus in the Peloponnese), were called, according to the Greek account, Aegialean Pelasgi, ; but afterwards, from Ion the son of Xuthus, they were called Ionians.

Herodotus Urania 8 pg 9

b. The Athenians, when the region which is now called Greece was held by the Pelasgi, were Pelasgians, and bore the name of Cranaans; but under their king Cecrops, they were called Cecropidae.

Herodotus, Polymnia Book 7

c. The Aeolians furnished sixty ships, and were equipped in the Grecian fashion. They too were called Pelasgians, as the Greeks declare.

As you can see they are PELASGIANS and whatever you arbitrarily call Greeks and their language Greek.

Sykalter wrote:
This is not "my" opinion. This is the academic field of linguistics. You should read some academic books on historical linguistics before you make statements which do not add anything to your argument. You can study hundreds of language families and see how there are sound changes. Today in Brazilian Portuguese initial r- is becoming "kh" so Rio is becoming Khio. Seemingly strange sound changes are occurring even today. Many English dialects prononuce "th" as "f" or even "d" and "v".

I know this theory since I work everyday using it. Here it is a summary I made with this senseless PIE evolution:



Sykalter wrote:
Good good, here is a start of a real argument. We have Beattie, now what did Beattie say. He was a critic, are there more? What was his criticism. Have linguists or other specialists in related fields agreed with Beattie? Notice is says Beattie became controversial because he opposed the decipherment. Doesn't this tell you something about Beattie's views? It also states that the decipherment of Mycenaean as Greek has prevailed

If you read the article carefully we would have noticed that a lot of them agree with Beattie and find the Ventris Decipherement ridicilious:



So what you said before that all the scholars agree on Ventris decipherement is not true at all, I have to say most of the serious scholars dont agree to it. On top of that dont forget Beattie was Chadwick's proffesor and considered him: a student with scarce results.


Last edited by ZEUS10 on Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  Sykalter on Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:48 am

[quote="ZEUS10"]
Yes the IE languages didnt come to the existence ex nihilo, a language similar to Albanian today was the originative point.
I won't argue there with that point. I have always stated in my opinion the IE Urheimat is Albania.

ZEUS10 wrote:I can bring you the main source: ancient writers who clearly say that Aeolians, Ionians &/or Athenians are PELASGIANS:
Linguistically, Aeolic, Ionic, Doric, etc. form a linguistic genetic unit which we call Greek in English. It more seems you dislike the term Greek. But like I stated before, you can replace the term "Greek" with whatever you like. The fact remains that linguistically these all descend from a Proto-language. I don't really care what you call this unit, Hellenic, Greek, West South Indo-European, what you call this group is arbitrary, what is important is that you realize they form a genetic unit.
If you want to challenge Linear B as Mycenaean, then you at least have a bit more to go on and people would not think you were crazy. Although Linear B as not Mycenaean is clearly a minority view. But, there is absolutely NO linguist with any credibility who would deny that Aeolic, Ionic, Doric, etc. formed a genetic unit and ALL linguists except Indo-European as a valid genetic family with absolutely no exceptions. This is the mainstream and any linguist who denied that IE was a valid linguistic family would be considered a fool.

By the way, what does: ...and on the whole his adherents of the decipherment have subsequently prevailed... mean to you? Your source clearly states which theory has prevailed...not Beattie's...correct?

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  alfeko sukaraku on Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:47 pm

Fjalori rrokor i Michael Ventrit mbetet me i besueshmi per keto momente.Dijetaret bazohen tek ky fjalore ne pergjithsi,por ka edhe nga ata qe fale "trukeve kombtare" gjisin shkallet e parlamentit evropian.Fjala eshte per Babinjotin greke i cili eshte marre me studimin e linear b .Llogjika e Babinjotit eshte kjo ..ne se rrokja p sh"ra" do lexohej edhe "da,la.pa,ka,a" ateher munde te lexojm fare lehte fjale greke ne linear b.Eshte njesoj sikur te themi se emri qe shkruhet si "Hasan" do te thote " Monika"...edhe kete ai e arrin duke kthyer "H=M,A=O,N=S,A=I,N=K=A".Kur i drejtohemi nje mbishkrimi te lashte eshte me se llogjike qe prane "R" te gjejm"L" qe pranohet nga Ventri e shumica dijetare...ose pran "T"te djejm "D"---por jo te gjitha germat marrinte gjitha degjimet rrokore....ndaj Babinjotet mbeten dijetare nacionalist edhe shume large ndershmeris se nje "dijetari".

Zotrinj.J T Hooker --Linear B ,At introduction--1980 --eshte me se i qarte kur e pranon alfabetin rrokor te Ventrit si te sakte edhe te ndertuar nga bazat e Alicia Kober ,por eshte po keshtu po kaq i qarte kur na kujton se

"duke vertetuar se emrat vendore perfundojn me "os-ja" Michael Ventri nuk vertetoj ekzistencen e asnje fjale te vetme greke ne linear b,pasi emrat vendore jane te njohura edhe te pranuare prej shume koheve qe i perkasin periudhes paragreke".

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Mbi numrin "nji".

Post  orakulli on Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:30 pm

pellazg( na) grek(ena) shqip(nje)ose nja duke marre parasysh dialektin geg, eshte (ni), qe do te thote se (a) ka evoluar ne (i) deri me sot.
Gabimi qendron vetem ne ate se sa gjere gjeografikisht gjuhetaret analizojne.
Marim numrin 1.
Ne gjuhen standarte te sotme kemi "Një".
Ne dialektin geg kemi jo nje forme por tre forma "nji,njo,nja".Besoj se e dini kete fakt.Nese ne e shikojme variantin standart:
Une mendoj se kjo eshte forme shume e re e gjuhes shqipe,bile shume artificiale.Vendosja e "ë" synon fshejen e gjuhes se vertet shqipe.
Kete e tregon dialekti Cam dhe ai Geg,te cilet formen me kryesore kane "Nji".Nuk po jape shembuj empirik se nuk eshte nevoja.
Kjo forme eshte ekuvalente me "nja".Cila eshte me e vjeter?Une mendoj se "nji".
Pse nuk eshte vendosur "nji" ne gjuhen standarte te sotme eshte tjeter problem.
Po te hapemi gjeografikisht dhe te shkojme ne Kinen e para 5000 vjeteve shohim qe numri 1,si tingelluese,jo si simboll vizatimor ose logogram,eshte zanorja "i".
Mos valle dhe "nji","ni" eshte e re(jo shume e re) dhe tregon thjesht dhe menyren e formimit "n'i=permbledhur me njohurite e sotme ne minifrazën me kuptim/në "i"/.
Po te zgjerohem me shume shqipja e tregon shume qarte ne njesi te tjera gjuhesore qe fillimi,ose numerimi behet prej "i"-se.

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  Sykalter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:34 pm

The Albanian word for one and the Greek words for one are not of the same Proto-Indo-European root. Ancient Greek heis comes from *sems, mia from *smih2, and hen from *sem (all the same root). Armenian mek, and Tocharian sas/s.e also come from this root. Albanian gjithё, Latin semper, and English some continue this root, but the meaning has shifted so it does not mean 1. Albanian njё as well as Latin unus, English one continue the other PIE root for one, *oino-. Greek also continues this root in oios but the meaning has shifted to alone.

The Albanian Tosk forms are the more innovative while the Gheg forms like nja are more conservative. Tosk vowels tend to be more innovative while the consonants are conservative (with the exception of -r) while Gheg vowels tend to be more conservative with the consonants being more innovative (with the exception of -n).

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

Post  orakulli on Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:30 pm

The Albanian word for one and the Greek words for one are not of the same Proto-Indo-European root. Ancient Greek heis comes from *sems, mia from *smih2, and hen from *sem (all the same root). Armenian mek, and Tocharian sas/s.e also come from this root. Albanian gjithё, Latin semper, and English some continue this root, but the meaning has shifted so it does not mean 1. Albanian njё as well as Latin unus, English one continue the other PIE root for one, *oino-. Greek also continues this root in oios but the meaning has shifted to alone.

The Albanian Tosk forms are the more innovative while the Gheg forms like nja are more conservative. Tosk vowels tend to be more innovative while the consonants are conservative (with the exception of -r) while Gheg vowels tend to be more conservative with the consonants being more innovative (with the exception of -n).
Ketu skuptojme ne gjuhen matematike te te pareve e thkesoj "TANE".
Te paret tane kane perdorur njekohesisht ** "ni>nji,nia>nja,nio>njo".Ndryshimi qendronte vetem ne gjini,nderlikueshmeri dhe ne kohen e jetgjatesise te njesive/objekteve matematikore njejes qe percaktonin.
Por kjo,per nivelin e teorive te sotme gjuhesore indoeuropiane eshte shume abstrakte dhe e avancuar si teze.

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Re: The Pelasgian Dialects

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